Anybody else getting sick of modellers?

[Frodebro]

I’ve thought about staying with a modeler+""FRFR"", but then having a clean platform amp like a Bella or Pearl, and messing with pedals again. Trouble is finding a great gain pedal.

I've been doing exactly that with a Marshall Studio JTM combo and a traditional pedalboard.

 

[Jarick]

One thing that bugs me with Fractal is trying to get the impedance curve matched up perfectly (or just within margin of the feel to make it believable) with a real cab and tube or SS power amp. I mean, it sounds good and is really close to an amp, but just not 100% there for me. That is a rabbit hole I've decided to back out of altogether even though it is costing me more for the rig(s). I'm separating worlds now - Axe-FX III or plug-ins only for ""FRFR"" or studio monitors and anything else is traditional pedals, amps or tube preamps and power amps. I'm wiring up the Axe FX for effects loop as an option with the traditional rig.

I have to remind myself that the cab is equally important as the amp. There isn't a shortcut for that.

@Jarick you may want to consider the ISP Stealth Class A/B as an alternative to the Duncan. I'm old school in that way and a believer in Class A/B over Class D.

Yeah that can throw me off. I like to use 2x12 or 4x12 IR's and with the smaller amps sometimes the feel and tone is off. It's another item on the unnecessary checklist.

Good shout on the ISP...that's cheaper than the Duncan and class AB is definitely intriguing.

I guess when it boils down to it, I'm looking for two rigs myself:

1. The kitchen sink rig, the Axe FX 3 into studio monitors which can do anything you want. When you want to deep dive into every little tone and all the effects and what not.

2. The simple plug and play rig, which is what I'm trying to figure out. In theory this could be a simple amp and a few pedals. Problem here is when the "do anything" brain starts to creep in here, because then pedals have to get swapped out, you start shopping for something, and an HX Stomp creeps back onto the board.

One thing I've learned over the last week is that I definitely want a good reverb on the amp, because a little bit of that really adds something to the whole tone. And I don't want to go shopping for a reverb pedal just for a splash of that. The Blackstar Amped one is not great, but the Roland JC is amazing. I'd think the Deluxe would be really good too. I have a few good delay and chorus pedals, so from there it's a good drive pedal.

But there's also the part of my brain that kind of just wants to run something like a single multi-effect into the amp so I don't have to mess with a board and cables and power and swapping all that. I think if the base amp tone is really good then there's a lot less likelihood of trying to fuss with tone.

Of course, then I wonder if it wouldn't be better to just run a floor modeler into the power amp and cab, or maybe that Fender FR-12 which gets a lot of hype. And then I go nuts thinking about all the possibilities.

 

[the swede]

Yeah that can throw me off. I like to use 2x12 or 4x12 IR's and with the smaller amps sometimes the feel and tone is off. It's another item on the unnecessary checklist.

Good shout on the ISP...that's cheaper than the Duncan and class AB is definitely intriguing.

I guess when it boils down to it, I'm looking for two rigs myself:

1. The kitchen sink rig, the Axe FX 3 into studio monitors which can do anything you want. When you want to deep dive into every little tone and all the effects and what not.

2. The simple plug and play rig, which is what I'm trying to figure out. In theory this could be a simple amp and a few pedals. Problem here is when the "do anything" brain starts to creep in here, because then pedals have to get swapped out, you start shopping for something, and an HX Stomp creeps back onto the board.

One thing I've learned over the last week is that I definitely want a good reverb on the amp, because a little bit of that really adds something to the whole tone. And I don't want to go shopping for a reverb pedal just for a splash of that. The Blackstar Amped one is not great, but the Roland JC is amazing. I'd think the Deluxe would be really good too. I have a few good delay and chorus pedals, so from there it's a good drive pedal.

But there's also the part of my brain that kind of just wants to run something like a single multi-effect into the amp so I don't have to mess with a board and cables and power and swapping all that. I think if the base amp tone is really good then there's a lot less likelihood of trying to fuss with tone.

Of course, then I wonder if it wouldn't be better to just run a floor modeler into the power amp and cab, or maybe that Fender FR-12 which gets a lot of hype. And then I go nuts thinking about all the possibilities.

I think HX stomp and no pedals into an amp is a sweet thing. Could probably do everything one would need.

 

[Whizzinby]

Well the JC-40 may not last long.

It sounds really damn good for cleans, the chorus is amazing, and the reverb is just perfectly dialed in.

But there's a really loud and annoying hiss at all volumes, just like the cheap studio monitors I've tried in the past. It doesn't scale up or down with the preamp volume, or guitar, or by running directly into the effects loop. It's just always a hiss.

From what I can see on the internets, there's not really a fix. There's some bad design somewhere in the power amp circuitry and smart people have gotten around it, but IMO not worth messing around.

I'll probably play around with it for a day or two then run it back. May swap out for that Fender Deluxe TM, or may just look for a different cab. I'm kind of intrigued by the Mesa 2x10 with Creambacks:

That sucks dude. I’m curious what the “fix” is for the 40.

I run a comp into the front of my JC120 with the VP4 in the stereo loop and it’s pretty much my favorite plug n play setup. It’s the perfect ambient machine for my tastes. Onboard chorus =

 

[Eagle]

That sucks dude. I’m curious what the “fix” is for the 40.

I run a comp into the front of my JC120 with the VP4 in the stereo loop and it’s pretty much my favorite plug n play setup. It’s the perfect ambient machine for my tastes. Onboard chorus =

Also the chorus on that is a built in CE1 which is one of the nicest ever.

 

[Jarick]

Also the chorus on that is a built in CE1 which is one of the nicest ever.

I was able to damn near match with the dual chorus block using these settings:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/boss-ce1.160631/#post-1925191

It was really damn close, just tweak the depth/EQ/rate a bit. But this is the classic one side vibrato, other side mono effect. With studio monitors it was really similar to the physical stereo chorus.

 

[Jarick]

That sucks dude. I’m curious what the “fix” is for the 40.

I run a comp into the front of my JC120 with the VP4 in the stereo loop and it’s pretty much my favorite plug n play setup. It’s the perfect ambient machine for my tastes. Onboard chorus =

So I think it's the exact same thing as the Fender FR-12 hiss.

The old analog JC's have a nasty hiss and someone measured all the gain stages and found that one of them was nearly 10x as high as it should be. With those old units, they could swap a resistor out and practically eliminated the hiss. They did find the volume dropped but that's not a big deal because the originals were so loud. So instead of running it on 2-3 you run it at 4-5.

The new JC's like the Fender FR's use IC's for amplification. I think the fix here was to use either different IC's that would have different gain values or to have higher quality ones with lower noise. Unfortunately nobody has reverse engineered the JC-40 to figure that out. And I'm not going to bother as I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze.

I will say another thing the JC-40 for "bedroom" levels is literally just cracking the volume knob open. It sounds like a digital volume control to me because there's a subtle stepping in. There's basically two levels before it starts to get too loud.

At the end of the day the JC-40 is super cool and if it were for band volumes I think would be a fantastic amp. For low volume use the hiss is too loud and volume knob too sensitive.

 

[Jarick]

So today's adventure, I'm going to return the JC-40 and have a few ideas:

1. Exchange it for a Fender FR-12 and see what all the hype is about. Everyone and their grandma seems to love these things now that the hiss issue has been largerly fixed. It's supposed to sound a heck of a lot more like an amp in the room and have less of the annoying high end issues of PA speakers or small studio monitors.
   
   Note that I do really like my new iLoud monitors, they work awesome for that recorded tone, but my idea would be to plug in something like the QC direct into the FR-12 and not have to worry about things like 4CM or swapping pedals to get different gain tones or whatever. Here the hope would be to not have to fuss around with IR's and basically build my virtual dream amp in the modeler with all the effects.
   
   
2. Exchange it towards the Fender Tone Master Deluxe Creamback. I probably should have plugged into that amp yesterday but it was super crowded with Black Friday and all. I did pick it up and it's super light weight which is neat, and it's pretty clean.
   
   But the idea here would be a really good clean amp, with a good reverb onboard, with a good speaker, with an attenuator to not have to run it at 0.2 on the volume knob, and something that could take pedals well. I've got a bunch of analog pedals at this point plus an HX Stomp but the key here is, can I settle on a couple core tones that don't require (or allow) for much tweaking and fuss.
   
   
3. Return it and check out some different cab options. There's a really intriguing Mojotone angled 1x12 loaded with an EVM 12L locally. The cab can be converted from closed back to 1/3 open to 2/3 open, so lots of options there. And I could swap the speaker for something different if needed.

 

[Shredder777]

Note that I do really like my new iLoud monitors, they work awesome for that recorded tone, but my idea would be to plug in something like the QC direct into the FR-12 and not have to worry about things like 4CM or swapping pedals to get different gain tones or whatever. Here the hope would be to not have to fuss around with IR's and basically build my virtual dream amp in the modeler with all the effects.

Four cable method is dead.

Having your points of adjustment in different places is antiquated and it really screws up workflow, transport, setup.

Rack setups are bullshit for the same reason. You always need pedals or board for switching, and you probably still have some analog pedals, so having a pedalboard in front with rack gear behind is bullshit. You have to integrate the pedalboard with the rack. Unless you are a national touring gig forget about it.

If you roll with the philosophy that all adjustments need to be done in the same (physical) location, then the only solution is a pedal board with single cable to amp and/or PA.


This means either a traditional pedalboard with preamp pedal (friedman IR-X, tonex, etc) , an AIO board modeler (helix etc), or a combination of the above.

 

[Sascha Franck]

and you probably still have some analog pedals, so having a pedalboard in front with rack gear behind is bullshit.

That's what loop switchers and rack drawers are for.

Unless you are a national touring gig forget about it.

How comes I've been able to use such a setup for at least one decade live, without being a national touring gig? Apart from the transportation aspect, I never had a setup requiring more than 2-5 minutes to be done with everything.
So what exactly are you even talking about?

 

[norminal]

Sick of modelers? Nowhere near how sick I was of lugging heavy-ass amps and cabs up narrow back stairwells of dive bars.

Just checking in. Nope. Still not sick of modelers.

 

[Warmart]

Just checking in. Nope. Still not sick of modelers.

And some aren't sick of wasting their time arguing

 

[metropolis_4]

So today's adventure, I'm going to return the JC-40 and have a few ideas:

1. Exchange it for a Fender FR-12 and see what all the hype is about. Everyone and their grandma seems to love these things now that the hiss issue has been largerly fixed. It's supposed to sound a heck of a lot more like an amp in the room and have less of the annoying high end issues of PA speakers or small studio monitors.
   
   Note that I do really like my new iLoud monitors, they work awesome for that recorded tone, but my idea would be to plug in something like the QC direct into the FR-12 and not have to worry about things like 4CM or swapping pedals to get different gain tones or whatever. Here the hope would be to not have to fuss around with IR's and basically build my virtual dream amp in the modeler with all the effects.
   
   
2. Exchange it towards the Fender Tone Master Deluxe Creamback. I probably should have plugged into that amp yesterday but it was super crowded with Black Friday and all. I did pick it up and it's super light weight which is neat, and it's pretty clean.
   
   But the idea here would be a really good clean amp, with a good reverb onboard, with a good speaker, with an attenuator to not have to run it at 0.2 on the volume knob, and something that could take pedals well. I've got a bunch of analog pedals at this point plus an HX Stomp but the key here is, can I settle on a couple core tones that don't require (or allow) for much tweaking and fuss.
   
   
3. Return it and check out some different cab options. There's a really intriguing Mojotone angled 1x12 loaded with an EVM 12L locally. The cab can be converted from closed back to 1/3 open to 2/3 open, so lots of options there. And I could swap the speaker for something different if needed.

The Tone Master Deluxe is great for that! It tends to like brighter pedals. I’ve heard it’s not that great with analog fuzz though

 

[paisleywookiee]

Four cable method is dead.

Based on what? Tons and tons of people do 4CM. With modern loops being what they are, it sounds great, especially when you're using preamp gain.

Rack setups are bullshit for the same reason. You always need pedals or board for switching, and you probably still have some analog pedals, so having a pedalboard in front with rack gear behind is bullshit. You have to integrate the pedalboard with the rack. Unless you are a national touring gig forget about it.

It's really not at all just "national touring gigs". Tons of regional bands use racks with drawers, switchers, etc.

 

[duzie]

Just checking in. Nope. Still not sick of modelers.

This isn’t the way to move the conversation along

 

[Shredder777]

Based on what? Tons and tons of people do 4CM. With modern loops being what they are, it sounds great, especially when you're using preamp gain.

It's really not at all just "national touring gigs". Tons of regional bands use racks with drawers, switchers, etc.

OK, youre right. Any professional organization will need rack gear. It was hyperbole.

Also, 4cm will always live in some form. Its just running a piece of gear in the loop of another. I was referring to long 4cm cable runs from a pedalboard to an amp. The direction things seem to be going is all pedalboard solutions. Again, some hyperbole.

These are opinions, but I believe they capture the trends and are correct.

 

[paisleywookiee]

OK, youre right. Any professional organization will need rack gear. It was hyperbole.

I mean, I'm talking weekend warrior cover bands. Plenty of people run rack gear, pedal shelves, Mesa TC/Mark/JP rackmounts, etc.

Also, 4cm will always live in some form. Its just running a piece of gear in the loop of another. I was referring to long 4cm cable runs from a pedalboard to an amp. The direction things seem to be going is all pedalboard solutions. Again, some hyperbole.

These are opinions, but I believe they capture the trends and are correct.

Again, 4CM is the norm, from what I've seen. Cable snakes are dead simple for connectivity, and a simple buffer accounts for any roll-off. No one's running their delays/reverbs into the front of high gain amps, unless they're going for a specific/weird sound.

 

[Eagle]

That's what loop switchers and rack drawers are for.



How comes I've been able to use such a setup for at least one decade live, without being a national touring gig? Apart from the transportation aspect, I never had a setup requiring more than 2-5 minutes to be done with everything.
So what exactly are you even talking about?

OK, youre right. Any professional organization will need rack gear. It was hyperbole.

Also, 4cm will always live in some form. Its just running a piece of gear in the loop of another. I was referring to long 4cm cable runs from a pedalboard to an amp. The direction things seem to be going is all pedalboard solutions. Again, some hyperbole.

These are opinions, but I believe they capture the trends and are correct.

Use axe 3 4cm is better because all the signal stays behind you. The foot control is only that .this should be the standard.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Use axe 3 4cm is better because all the signal stays behind you. The foot control is only that .this should be the standard.

Yeah, the AxeIII, FM9, and VP4 are all optimized for that.

 

[Shredder777]

Use axe 3 4cm is better because all the signal stays behind you. The foot control is only that .this should be the standard.

I think you should put on your Member's Only jacket when you are programming the system, to get in a period correct state of mind.

I notice most pro guitar acts still have a full pedalboard. Most things have migrated to the floor.