3.6 When ?

[Rewolf]

I'm with @mbenigni on this one. I use an iPad for supplementary sounds (such as GeoShred or Midi Guitar 2), but the only place I can insert into the audio path is at the start and the only place I can take a sound feed is at the end of a path.

It is not latency critical, at least not to the ms level - my violin playing on GeoShred is me feeding in only, but I have to dedicate a path to the GeoShred input when if I could have a return block to insert I could share the guitar path.

What it would allow me to do though is to use presets with full spillover which I currently can't do

 

[mbenigni]

I'm with @mbenigni on this one. I use an iPad for supplementary sounds (such as GeoShred or Midi Guitar 2), but the only place I can insert into the audio path is at the start and the only place I can take a sound feed is at the end of a path.

It is not latency critical, at least not to the ms level - my violin playing on GeoShred is me feeding in only, but I have to dedicate a path to the GeoShred input when if I could have a return block to insert I could share the guitar path.

What it would allow me to do though is to use presets with full spillover which I currently can't do

Thank you! I've been asking for this for years. Across at least two different platforms now. (One of which shall remain unnamed...)

 

[JiveTurkey]

This is going to sound dumb.







Can you take the audio out from the Ipad into one of the HX loops to do what you want? I probably asked this 6 years ago elsewhere

 

[mbenigni]

This is going to sound dumb.







Can you take the audio out from the Ipad into one of the HX loops to do what you want? I probably asked this 6 years ago elsewhere

I think you're referring to analog audio from iPad (i.e. 1/8" stereo) to the analog FX returns? This is doable, but it's twice as much cable for ~10% of the functionality - it just gets you two channels of audio output. If you wan't bi-directional audio, you need a USB audio interface with lightning. And if you want MIDI, the interface has to support that, and that adds more cables.

Right now you can run a single USB to lightning cable from Helix to iPhone/iPad and get bi-directional, multi-channel audio plus MIDI all on one wire. However, you can only get audio in at the Helix inputs, and audio out on the Helix outputs - not on the FX loop block sends and returns. So if you try to build a preset template where audio is sent to the iPad for effect processing or conversion to synth, then return it to the Helix for additional effect processing, you start to use up input/ output/ lane resources really fast.

 

[Rewolf]

Yep. Have to use USB to Lightning connection.

I typically use USB 1+2 and USB 3+4 at the same time. Plus MIDI sends control signals to the iPad Apps.

USB 1+2 goes direct to the Helix outputs which is rather limiting

I also @Digital Igloo 's favourite new feature from I can't remember how many releases ago... the ability to send key presses. The equivalent of Alt+Tab can be used to swap the visible app on the iPad, and I dedicate a Helix Switch to that.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Is there a hardware box that can do this routing between the Ipad and the Helix?

 

[paisleywookiee]

The numbers Logic is reporting are the same you get from physical measurements (which actually speaks in favour of the drivers).

Uh okay. Interesting. Don’t worry, I’m sure I’ll buy another Stomp to revisit this at some point.

 

[Sascha Franck]

But anyway, we really, really digress.

No, not really. You were asking for a sort of reasoning why the USB audio routing wouldn't allow for more complexed things and apart from technical difficulties (of which there might be quite some), something such as 16ms of latency (under decent/common buffer settings) seems to be a pretty good reason for me, regardless whether some people get along with that - which, btw, is absolutely fine. But imagine the amount of support calls a la "uhm, playing feel is all the way off once I use this and that feature". Also, would you limit things to just one "USB loop"? Line 6 would have to explain that - and even more so in case they allowed for two of such loops, as with 32ms of latency we're heading straight towards seasick territory already.
Don't get me wrong, it's a great idea on paper - but it's not the greatest idea to tinker with any such things in case you're delivering what is pretty much the worst audio interface drivers there are (and even if you could work around to a certain extent under macOS, under Windows you can't).

 

[pipelineaudio]

No drivers installed, it's not necessary with Logic/MacOS.

This is always a sore one, its technically correct, but that's usually also technically correct with windows too.

Put an RME card in your mac and see how much you like no drivers vs actually installing the drivers

 

[pipelineaudio]

I don't remember, because as I've said, I don't have one anymore. I'm just saying Logic never reported latency that high with it. I guess it's not accurate.

DAW reported latency is a very different thing than round trip latency

 

[pipelineaudio]

The numbers Logic is reporting are the same you get from physical measurements (which actually speaks in favour of the drivers).

what do you mean by this? DAW numbers usually don;t include converter latency or hidden safety buffers

 

[Sascha Franck]

And fwiw (numbers are exactly the same Oblique's RTL tool is coming up with and also the same as my personal manual measurings, I double- and triple-checked these things already):

Switching samplerates doesn't make up for THAT much of a difference;

And at 96kHz it's even getting way worse, apparently because the driver isn't able to deal with it properly anymore:

 

[Sascha Franck]

DAW numbers usually don;t include converter latency or hidden safety buffers

Yes, they do. It's reported by the driver (in case the driver is programmed properly).
You can crosscheck with manual measurements (or with the Oblique RTL tool, which is just the same as manual measurements).

 

[Sascha Franck]

Having said that, as said, all the values from the screenshots above have been crosschecked by yours truly and the Oblique tool. And in case anyone doesn't trust me, give it a try for yourself:

Oblique Audio - RTL Utility

 

[pipelineaudio]

Yes, they do. It's reported by the driver (in case the driver is programmed properly).
You can crosscheck with manual measurements (or with the Oblique RTL tool, which is just the same as manual measurements).

No they don’t. Not usually. @Jim Roseberry blew the whistle on this one. It turned out that nearly every FireWire driver’s reported 6msec was actually 24msec. Aside from RME and Motu. Things might be different now but it’s also easy to get the wrong RTL from CEntrance LTU and Oblique RTL. You should double check you may be surprised. But whatever you get please let me know and I’ll add it to the Round Trip Latency Roundup page.

 

[pipelineaudio]

ooops. Posting at the same time as you. You did a loopback and got the same numbers that Logic reports?

 

[Sascha Franck]

No they don’t. Not usually. @Jim Roseberry blew the whistle on this one. It turned out that nearly every FireWire driver’s reported 6msec was actually 24msec.

Might've been different for some devices, but for all the ones I checked (and it's been a plenty), the numbers Logic reported were absolutely identical to the numbers measured, unless the drivers were just plain bad in general.
And fwiw, as said, I crosschecked pretty much everything for a whole while (100% manually).

 

[Sascha Franck]

You did a loopback and got the same numbers that Logic reports?

Yes.
For a while, I even had my old laptop sitting next to me, along with an interface, so I could easily insert each and every device between the split up input path. Easiest way to manually measure latencies.

 

[Sascha Franck]

And fwiw, in case anyone is interested in all this and up for reading through a most monstrous thread, here we go:

Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base - Gearspace

Hey All, I am sure all of us have seen posts over the years where end users have purchased a new audio interface and have experienced varying degrees o

gearspace.com

 

[mbenigni]

No, not really. You were asking for a sort of reasoning why the USB audio routing wouldn't allow for more complexed things and apart from technical difficulties (of which there might be quite some), something such as 16ms of latency (under decent/common buffer settings) seems to be a pretty good reason for me, regardless whether some people get along with that - which, btw, is absolutely fine. But imagine the amount of support calls a la "uhm, playing feel is all the way off once I use this and that feature". Also, would you limit things to just one "USB loop"? Line 6 would have to explain that - and even more so in case they allowed for two of such loops, as with 32ms of latency we're heading straight towards seasick territory already.
Don't get me wrong, it's a great idea on paper - but it's not the greatest idea to tinker with any such things in case you're delivering what is pretty much the worst audio interface drivers there are (and even if you could work around to a certain extent under macOS, under Windows you can't).

OMFG.

OK, one last shot: this functionality is already supported. People are already using it. I'm just looking for additional routing options to streamline preset programming.