Your Playback System Matters

[Mikael Dez]

Everyone here should read this:

Eric Klein: At Least Half of Your Modeler’s Sound Is Determined by Your Playback System - Model Citizens

The Helix mastermind details the pros and cons of seven popular playback options and explains why your choice is critical to your tone.

blog.line6.com

@DrewJD82 Please feel free to sticky this thread so we can continuously point to it

 

[EOengineer]

This is a bunch of science mumbo jumbo. There’s absolutely no reason my 80s Walkman mini speakers can’t sound like a cranked Marshall Stack.

 

[jay mitchell]

The statement, while meaningful, is incomplete. The correct statement:

The more transparent your playback system, the more of your sound comes entirely from the modeler.

While it's true that every sort of hybrid imaginable is being used by guitar players, it is also true that the electrical signal from a modeler/preamp/microphone will produce a characteristic sound that you will only ever hear if your playback system is sufficiently transparent. The same principle applies equally to recorded music. For example, if you've only ever heard a recording on cheap, tiny computer or bluetooth speakers, you don't know how the recording sounds. You've only heard its sound as corrupted by an inadequate playback system.

 

[KingsXJJ]

 

[KingsXJJ]

This is a bunch of science mumbo jumbo. There’s absolutely no reason my 80s Walkman mini speakers can’t sound like a cranked Marshall Stack.

You just need a thiele cab for them.

 

[Lysander]

The more transparent your playback system, the more of your sound comes entirely from the modeler.

You're missing the point - it's not about transparency. Guitar power amplifiers and cabs are about of a polar opposite of "transparent" as you can get, and they're still the tonal holy grail for a lot of people.

What @Digital Igloo is getting at here is that listening to a modeler through a PA speaker, a couple of studio monitors or an amplified 4x12" are all valid use cases, yet completely different experiences.

 

[jay mitchell]

You're missing the point

I'll argue that it is you who miss my point. Again - if you're making full use of a modeler, the playback system you'll need won't make a sonic contribution of its own beyond amplifying and reproducing the signal.

- it's not about transparency.

If you want to know how your modeler sounds, it's exactly about transparency.

Guitar power amplifiers and cabs are about of a polar opposite of "transparent" as you can get,

And - pay attention, this is important - the purpose of a modeler is to create the sound of "guitar power amplifiers and cabs." If you're unable to accomplish that goal with only transparent amplification, then there is either a deficiency in the modeler or in its settings.

If you only use amp sims and rely on a physical guitar cab, then the cab is more than half of your sound. If, in addition, you use a tube power amp with a guitar cab, then the contribution of your playback rig is more like two thirds of the total. If you've had to go that far to get satisfactory results, I've got to ask why you'd bother with a modeler at all. It's far easier to use a tube amp you like.

 

[Mikael Dez]

 

[Lysander]

Nah, I'm not going to get into this, sorry.

The first two paragraphs of that article pretty much sum what i would've replied anyway.

 

[Mikael Dez]

Nah, I'm not going to get into this, sorry.

The first two paragraphs of that article pretty much sums what i would've replied anyway.

It isn’t worth it lol, and the condescending tone doesn’t help

 

[Alex Kenivel]

transparent amplification

If transparent amplification is all that is required, this raises a question about playback speaker size.

Let's say I'm attempting to recreate the sound of a deluxe reverb. If I have a 2-way wedge that is supposedly transparent, that should work, right?

What if I'm trying to recreate the sound of a full stack Marshal rig, would that little 2 way wedge suffice? Would I need something bigger with more speakers to really get the full effect?

Would that bigger FRFR setup then make that DR sound different?

Let's say that I'm using reflection-free farfield IRs, not close mic'ed..

 

[sashimi]

What is this perfectly transparent amplification and speaker that can perfectly reproduce the sound of any and every speaker cabinet, so we never have to discuss asshole-in-the-room again?

 

[Digital Igloo]

I'll argue that it is you who miss my point. Again - if you're making full use of a modeler, the playback system you'll need won't make a sonic contribution of its own beyond amplifying and reproducing the signal.

It doesn't matter how transparent your, oh, let's say $100,000 studio mains in your Russ Berger-designed control room are, they'll still never compare to a roaring 4x12 pointing at the back of your knees that some (not all, but some) people associate with the sound and feel of a real amp. And that's fine because everyone has different expectations and needs.

If there's a point to my article, it's that modeling cannot and should not be blamed for any disparity between one's expectation and reality... at least not until the playback system portion of the rig's been nailed down with appropriate understanding and context.

 

[paisleywookiee]

There is no correct way to use a modeler. You can use it through a guitar cab. You can use it through FRFR/PA. You can use it just for effects. It depends on the person, and the use case.

 

[jay mitchell]

It doesn't matter how transparent your, oh, let's say $100,000 studio mains in your Russ Berger-designed control room are,

$100k for the mains in some of Russ' studios would be something of a bargain. He's done residential systems with more expensive speakers than that.

they'll still never compare to a roaring 4x12 pointing at the back of your knees that some (not all, but some) people associate with the sound and feel of a real amp.

There's that tired reference yet again. While there is a subset of guitar owners - some of whom can actually play guitar - for whom that profoundly non-musical experience is actually iconic, it is not by any means a universal figure of merit. I've seen guys sit in the bass bins at pop festivals, too. I'm sure their experience was memorable, but I wouldn't refer to it as something anyone should ever do. If you stand in front of a half (or full) stack operating at maximum volume long enough, that's gonna end up being about the only thing you'll be able to hear (if you can hear anything at all). I know a few players to whom that applies.

And that's fine because everyone has different expectations and needs.

Agreed. However, a general statement that "your playback system is at least half of your sound" is incorrect on its face. At one extreme - relying on the modeler for 100% of amp and cab simulation - it's ideally zero. At the other extreme - using the modeler as preamp only, with a guitar amp and cab - it's more than two thirds. I agree that your playback system is important, but for different reasons in different setups.

If there's a point to my article, it's that modeling cannot and should not be blamed for any disparity between one's expectation and reality...

I'm in complete agreement with that statement.

at least not until the playback system portion of the rig's been nailed down with appropriate understanding and context.

Having offered that advice, you'd still have to acknowledge that there's a sizeable number of folks - again, some of whom can actually play guitar - who insist, loudly and publicly, that, even with a guitar power amp and cab, modeling just isn't "there." It happened here just a few days ago.

 

[Mikael Dez]

$100k for the mains in some of Russ' studios would be something of a bargain. He's done residential systems with more expensive speakers than that.

There's that tired reference yet again. While there is a subset of guitar owners - some of whom can actually play guitar - for whom that profoundly non-musical experience is actually iconic, it is not by any means a universal figure of merit. I've seen guys sit in the bass bins at pop festivals, too. I'm sure their experience was memorable, but I wouldn't refer to it as something anyone should ever do. If you stand in front of a half (or full) stack operating at maximum volume long enough, that's gonna end up being about the only thing you'll be able to hear (if you can hear anything at all). I know a few players to whom that applies.

Agreed. However, a general statement that "your playback system is at least half of your sound" is incorrect on its face. At one extreme - relying on the modeler for 100% of amp and cab simulation - it's ideally zero. At the other extreme - using the modeler as preamp only, with a guitar amp and cab - it's more than two thirds. I agree that your playback system is important, but for different reasons in different setups.

I'm in complete agreement with that statement.

Having offered that advice, you'd still have to acknowledge that there's a sizeable number of folks - again, some of whom can actually play guitar - who insist, loudly and publicly, that, even with a guitar power amp and cab, modeling just isn't "there." It happened here just a few days ago.

Are you and Eagle the same person?

 

[jay mitchell]

If transparent amplification is all that is required, this raises a question about playback speaker size.

It can raise a question of speaker bandwidth, which is partially related to size.

Let's say I'm attempting to recreate the sound of a deluxe reverb. If I have a 2-way wedge that is supposedly transparent, that should work, right?

What means "supposedly transparent?"

What if I'm trying to recreate the sound of a full stack Marshal rig, would that little 2 way wedge suffice? Would I need something bigger with more speakers to really get the full effect?

If "that little 2-way wedge" is a professional-quality device, it will be able to get noticeably louder than a 4 x 12. So, no.

Would that bigger FRFR setup then make that DR sound different?

See above.

Your misconception is that a plywood box with four stamped-basket speakers with small voice coils will be capable of generating more SPL or more low-frequency bandwidth than a high-output wedge. That hasn't been the case for decades.

 

[DrewJD82]

It can raise a question of speaker bandwidth, which is partially related to size.

What means "supposedly transparent?"

If "that little 2-way wedge" is a professional-quality device, it will be able to get noticeably louder than a 4 x 12. So, no.

See above.

Your misconception is that a plywood box with four stamped-basket speakers with small voice coils will be capable of generating more SPL or more low-frequency bandwidth than a high-output wedge. That hasn't been the case for decades.

My lord, Jay, it's a face-value article aimed at the people who don't understand that common playback systems for modelers aren't guitar cabs. That's it. If they don't already understand that concept just by looking at the gear involved, they sure as fuck aren't going to be interested in getting into an academic breakdown of speakers and you can safely assume they're swimming in the shallow end.

 

[Digital Igloo]

Having offered that advice, you'd still have to acknowledge that there's a sizeable number of folks - again, some of whom can actually play guitar - who insist, loudly and publicly, that, even with a guitar power amp and cab, modeling just isn't "there." It happened here just a few days ago.

Thanks, Jay. Always a pleasure.

I do take exception with the word "sizeable" here, tho'. The problem with the internet is that it's extremely difficult to qualify strangers' opinions. But I've been doing this a LOOOONG time and sure, it's anecdotal, but after having this conversation literally hundreds (thousands?) of times with people of all levels of experience, I can assure you that a tiny, tiny minority of people who claim to hear/experience deficiencies in modeling/digital are actually hearing and/or experiencing any real deficiencies in the technology itself.

And when someone pops into a digital and modeling subforum (or YouTube comment section), spouting vague platitudes like "modeling sUck0Rs, t00bZ ruLE"—with zero additional context or qualifications—there's no way in hell they're in the exceedingly rare upper pantheon of golden ear unicorns who know how to use and gain stage modelers properly, deeply understand how playback systems impact their sound/feel/experience, AND can still consistently and reliably call out deficiencies. If they could, they'd, y'know, start with nuance instead of a bumper sticker.

 

[Mikael Dez]

If, say, I take the output of my Helix and insert it straight up my ass, would that be “the most transparent”??