Tonex Pedal....It's REAL

[pipelineaudio]

Apparently Moore’s Law doesn’t apply to Kemper….

Or PodGo and HXFX (ducks)

 

[pipelineaudio]

So, it's not even remotely about timing superiority or whatever, but there's something that I call "latency threshold". Might be a completely different value for different persons. It's also not that I couldn't just get away with, say, 9ms of total latency (or even more), especially when not playing through headphones. It's just that there seems to be a certain latency range that causes something to change in our perception, whatever it might be. Could be as trivial as our timing reference to switch between from what comes out of the cans to what your picking fingers feel. No idea. But I could confirm my findings with some colleagues. Interestingly enough, even if at least 1-2 of them are "in the pocket" monsters, their latency threshold seemed to be located a few ms above.

This is something we spend a lot of time studying. Its crazy but for most people, under 13msec round trip latency feels "ok " when using a computer. Note I say "most" there are many many many like you who are much more sensitive. I will happily record all day long around a 11ms RTL.

But then we also found that there is a sort of expectation threshold, if you add even a small amount of latency (2-4ms) to a system someone was previously familiar with, they notice. I think this one is big for modellers and people used to hooking straight from the guitar to the speakers, with very little latency inducing devices in between

My first ban on TGP came from pointing out to the golden eared latency purists, that the minimum RTL they were getting by playing thru their iPads was around 20ms, while they extolled the virtues of no latency on that system

 

[pipelineaudio]

This is surely a known thing, but do you still need the capture device if you’re capturing Fractal/Kemper/plug-in tones? I don’t even want to do deal with searching for what I want to put in the pedal, I just want to capture my own sh*t and load it up.

As far as I know you may not need a device but you need a version of Tonex that can do captures, not just play them

 

[Elric]

Kemper has stated that for them to produce such a device the cost would basically equal that of the full profiler, as omitting a few components doesn't really add up to much.

So their cost of materials has been static for what? A decade? LOL. And there's been no advancement in any of the components used they could take advantage of to reduce part cost, count, etc? They must operate in a different dimension.

I'd guess in truth they are just not willing to invest further R&D for a lower margin but higher volume type of product.

 

[Elric]

But then we also found that there is a sort of expectation threshold, if you add even a small amount of latency (2-4ms) to a system someone was previously familiar with, they notice. I think this one is big for modellers and people used to hooking straight from the guitar to the speakers, with very little latency inducing devices in between

Interesting point. That makes some intuitive sense...

IIRC, one of the studies I saw a while back had noted that people were pretty adaptable wrt to latency as well.

So, I wonder with those two pirnciples at play, if most users could learn to tolerate (essentially teach themselves to stop noticing) the additional latency if that configuration became their new goto after adding the additional latency or if for most it would just be a deal breaker and something they never get past.

 

[Deadpan]

So their cost of materials has been static for what? A decade? LOL. And there's been no advancement in any of the components used they could take advantage of to reduce part cost, count, etc? They must operate in a different dimension.

I'd guess in truth they are just not willing to invest further R&D for a lower margin but higher volume type of product.

They manufacture it themselves. I imagine their margin is VERY high and they have no problem selling as is.

I have no doubt they are working on the next thing.

The statement I refer to is from many years ago.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Interesting point. That makes some intuitive sense...

IIRC, one of the studies I saw a while back had noted that people were pretty adaptable wrt to latency as well.

So, I wonder with those two pirnciples at play, if most users could learn to tolerate (essentially teach themselves to stop noticing) the additional latency if that configuration became their new goto after adding the additional latency or if for most it would just be a deal breaker and something they never get past.

I have yet to see a long enough study that checks if this effect goes away. "in my experience" (the worst thing to hear ever), while I notice the latency when I turn on the Mooer pitch pedal, if we stay in half step down for a few songs at practice, it no longer bugs me

 

[pipelineaudio]

The second a VST pedal becomes viable, I mean TRULY viable, not the Recpetor for instance, so much of these discussions goes out the window

 

[mbenigni]

I’d take it over an FM3 because I can capture my amps and cabs that I own and like. Modelers like the FM3 and Helix have me dumpster dive parameters and IR’s to try and get there. If this thing really can capture my amps well then this with my H90 is a no brainer.

A modeler and a power amp is my "real amp", for the most part, so when I have profile/ capture-based device, I wind up dumpster diving through everyone else's captures. And that's a much bigger dumpster. Blindfolded.

 

[dk_ace]

Uh, then you might as well just use an HX Stomp.

Not if you want the profiling. My point is if you had an fx loop on this you’re going to have additional pedals anyway, just use one that has a headphone out.

D

 

[paisleywookiee]

The second a VST pedal becomes viable, I mean TRULY viable, not the Recpetor for instance, so much of these discussions goes out the window

A floorboard with a Steamdeck-style touchscreen that runs a custom overlay on-top of an optimized Windows install, with top notch IO.

 

[Sascha Franck]

My first ban on TGP came from pointing out to the golden eared latency purists, that the minimum RTL they were getting by playing thru their iPads was around 20ms, while they extolled the virtues of no latency on that system

My-oh-my, don't tell me...
I even met with some dude who was running a rather elaborated iPad based system. He was all like "latency is noooo issue at all, just come over and check it out!" Which I did. Guess I don't need to go into the details, but I never bothered again for a while to come (apparently, these days it's gotten much better, though).

 

[Lysander]

A floorboard with a Steamdeck-style touchscreen that runs a custom overlay on-top of an optimized Windows install, with top notch IO.

That's, well, a laptop. There's good reason why people don't gig those

 

[paisleywookiee]

That's, well, a laptop. There's good reason why people don't gig those

No, it's not. A laptop plus interface is two moving parts and a cabled device.

 

[Lysander]

No, it's not. A laptop plus interface is two moving parts and a cabled device.

...and a general purpose computer connected to them.

Anyone who had a laptop anywhere near a live performance (f.ex. for stem management) will have a good couple of horror stories to share.

 

[paisleywookiee]

...and a general purpose computer connected to them.

Anyone who had a laptop anywhere near a live performance (f.ex. for stem management) will have a good couple of horror stories to share.

 

[Sleezy E]

Interesting point. That makes some intuitive sense...

IIRC, one of the studies I saw a while back had noted that people were pretty adaptable wrt to latency as well.

So, I wonder with those two pirnciples at play, if most users could learn to tolerate (essentially teach themselves to stop noticing) the additional latency if that configuration became their new goto after adding the additional latency or if for most it would just be a deal breaker and something they never get past.

I have a little personal experience from this...

When I first got my Variax a few years ago, I played it exclusively through the modeling side for about a year. It sounded and played great.

I would play my other guitars , sure, but whenever I plugged in the jtv59.. only models.

When I finally switched to the magnetic pickups one day, the guitar felt completely different. There was an immediacy to it I wasn't used to.

After playing for a while and switching back, I could feel/hear the latency.. but only for a while and it would fade.

TL;DR if the latency is low enough, you can detect it, but you can also learn to ignore it

 

[GTR37]

This sounds pretty darn good for a free Badcat capture

 

[jellodog]

This sounds pretty darn good for a free Badcat capture

That sounds great to me!

 

[Desertdweller]

This is a loader for IK's ToneX amp profiling tech. From what i've heard so far, it's up there with QC/Kemper - if not slightly better.

If this is the true Kemper killer in a compact size for under $1k we've all been waiting for, this will sell. This is going to be huge if so.