Those Seymour Duncan Powerstage amps are utter tripe

[SKU]

And one other thing is ... when people measure "sound" the frequency spectrum is played iteratively. Who knows what happens in different devices when various frequencies are played at the same time ... that would require some IR matrices rather than vectors ...

 

[Orvillain]

What would happen if a deaf person was in a techno club and was stood next to the PA as 808 kick drums blared out from it?

Would they know that sound was being produced, and would they be able to identify it as a kick drum?

Not a piss take question.

My guess would be they would feel the vibrations. And on some level that reveals that feel is a real phenomenon, separate (but linked also) from the sonic aspects of sound.

People often associated red with anger, and blue with cold. This is the territory that feel exists within.

It doesn't mean feel is not real.

 

[SKU]

What would happen if a deaf person was in a techno club and was stood next to the PA as 808 kick drums blared out from it?

Would they know that sound was being produced, and would they be able to identify it as a kick drum?

Not a piss take question.

My guess would be they would feel the vibrations. And on some level that reveals that feel is a real phenomenon, separate (but linked also) from the sonic aspects of sound.

People often associated red with anger, and blue with cold. This is the territory that feel exists within.

It doesn't mean feel is not real.

Well ... if you take high doses of potent supplements playing guitar is a total different experience. Now you can say that the brain just went haywire but the interesting thing here is that the more you take the crazier it gets. And then you account for the fact that the reason our brains have receptors for these supplements is because our body naturally produces them. So then it's not a ON/OFF thing but rather a spectrum so then what exactly are we measuring here ? Is it really just about frequency charts ?!

 

[LeftyLoungeLizard]

Also... one thing I've gotta say....

With an analog rig, you can just... get the sound you like.

With a digital rig....

Oh... I like York Audio... I also like Ownhammer.... ohhhh Ownhammer have something called the V30 Workhorse pack! Oh? It is a Line6 exclusive? I don't get WAV files? ... how much of this content is recycled content from other packs? No idea. I own 6 Ownhammer packs already, with plenty of V30's.... fuck... now I'm sucked into trying to figure out if I own any of the "exclusive" content already....

Oh... I love the Dual Rectifier.... fuck me... there are like... fifty different options on the market.... this one here is shit... so cool.. cross it off the list.... these other 49? They're all pretty good.... arrggggghhhhhhh!!!! I JUST WANT TO PLAY AND RECORD MUSIC!!!!!

... working in this industry from a drum samples perspective, I totally get why there is so much stuff. But also just as a regular idiot .... I really don't get why there is so much stuff. You get me?

I guess right now I'm in the "I want to purge my gear and just focus on a few top notch choices" phase of my regular cycle!

Bloody gear ovulation man. Can't wait for gearopause!

"Paralysis by analysis"

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

What would happen if a deaf person was in a techno club and was stood next to the PA as 808 kick drums blared out from it?

Would they know that sound was being produced, and would they be able to identify it as a kick drum?

Not a piss take question.

My guess would be they would feel the vibrations. And on some level that reveals that feel is a real phenomenon, separate (but linked also) from the sonic aspects of sound.

People often associated red with anger, and blue with cold. This is the territory that feel exists within.

It doesn't mean feel is not real.

Bro, I'm not gonna question anybody else's sensory experience. But I can't say I've ever been in a spot where I thought "Ya, know, my ears tell my these two guitar noise devices sound the same, but the air swirls ever so differently around my nipples in a way I can feel with the first one that doesn't happen with the second one."

MAYBE we humans have some magical ability to more sensitively differentiate air pressure generated from a speaker based on how it hits us in the chest than we do with our ears such that two things that otherwise sound the same FEEL different. But that seems awfully far fetched.

Your example -- we're not talking about whether a hearing impaired person could tell a kick drum was playing through a PA system...we're talking about whether he could tell whether it was a sample of an 808 or the 808 itself based on the feeling in his chest.

 

[Orvillain]

Your example -- we're not talking about whether a hearing impaired person could tell a kick drum was playing through a PA system...we're talking about whether he could tell whether it was a sample of an 808 or the 808 itself based on the feeling in his chest.

No we're not. You're getting hung up on the generators. Don't. What source A and B are, is more or less irrelevant.

We are trying to determine if feel is a real phenomenon or not. Now in my opinion, this is purely about sensory experience, and the division of labour between the ears and the body.

A deaf person is a perfect test case. It is the most extreme situation, so any differences or observations they might be able to make, should hold true with varying degrees of subtlety throughout the spectrum.

Bringing it back up a few levels to the domain of guitar amplification, I'm not saying that these things are night and day.

I'm saying they are very subtle. I am saying that the way a poweramp constricts on palm mutes with one amp versus another, doesn't belong in the domain of "sonics" but rather in the domain of "feel".

I'm saying that when I plug a modeller into a Seymour Duncan Powerstage, regardless of wattage, regardless of clipping the poweramp, regardless of the actual modeller tone... my senses tell me that it feels different to play versus my dual rectifier. The same way that my senses tell me that my VH4 feels different to play versus my dual rectifier. And it isn't about the way they sound. It is about the way they react to my fingers and my pick. And those things are identifiable and recognisable. Many people are able to do so.

A few of you guys seem to want to just have one big bucket labelled "sound" and throw everything in there. But I'm telling you, you're throwing in mushrooms... and I fucking hate mushrooms. Keep that shit separate, so I don't have to eat it.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

No we're not. You're getting hung up on the generators. Don't. What source A and B are, is more or less irrelevant.

We are trying to determine if feel is a real phenomenon or not. Now in my opinion, this is purely about sensory experience, and the division of labour between the ears and the body.

A deaf person is a perfect test case. It is the most extreme situation, so any differences or observations they might be able to make, should hold true with varying degrees of subtlety throughout the spectrum.

Bringing it back up a few levels to the domain of guitar amplification, I'm not saying that these things are night and day.

I'm saying they are very subtle. I am saying that the way a poweramp constricts on palm mutes with one amp versus another, doesn't belong in the domain of "sonics" but rather in the domain of "feel".

I'm saying that when I plug a modeller into a Seymour Duncan Powerstage, regardless of wattage, regardless of clipping the poweramp, regardless of the actual modeller tone... my senses tell me that it feels different to play versus my dual rectifier. The same way that my senses tell me that my VH4 feels different to play versus my dual rectifier. And it isn't about the way they sound. It is about the way they react to my fingers and my pick. And those things are identifiable and recognisable. Many people are able to do so.

A few of you guys seem to want to just have one big bucket labelled "sound" and throw everything in there. But I'm telling you, you're throwing in mushrooms... and I fucking hate mushrooms. Keep that shit separate, so I don't have to eat it.

"reacts to my fingers and my pick" -- to produce a different output from the guitar amp/modeler/whatever that we sense in some way.

Call me inflexible, but I'm going to say its WILDLY more plausible that we sense the difference in output from the guitar amp-like devices with our ears, but the differences are sufficiently subtle that we can't describe them and so use the word "feel", rather than that we sense/feel the subtle differences in air pressure with the hair on our arms, the skin on our chest, whatever and that this extra-sensory ability can detect super micro-difference in sound pressure waves that our ears can't. If we can "feel" those kinds of differences in sound waves within the 20Hz-20kHz range...these weird things on the side of our head that are prone to infection sure seem like a really strange evolutionary result?

 

[Orvillain]

"reacts to my fingers and my pick" -- to produce a different output from the guitar amp/modeler/whatever that we sense in some way.

Call me inflexible, but I'm going to say its WILDLY more plausible that we sense the difference in output from the guitar amp-like devices with our ears, but the differences are sufficiently subtle that we can't describe them and so use the word "feel", rather than that we sense/feel the subtle differences in air pressure with the hair on our arms, the skin on our chest, whatever and that this extra-sensory ability can detect super micro-difference in sound pressure waves that our ears can't. If we can "feel" those kinds of differences in sound waves within the 20Hz-20kHz range...these weird things on the side of our head that are prone to infection sure seem like a really strange evolutionary result?

Do you notice how you keep strawmanning what I say, in order to repeat the same point you've made over and over? Just cut to the chase and say you don't think feel is real. It is much more honest dialogue.

I think it is real. I think there is a distinction to be made between what we hear, and what we feel when playing.

And again, if everything for you is down to the ears, the ear canal, the ossicles, and the cochlea (lol), then how do you explain a deaf person's ability to distinguish one vibration from another?

I'll put it another way - when something is recorded, I cannot feel anything. I can only feel something when I'm in the room with the amplification device. I'm not saying the ears aren't involved in feel. They are. But I am saying the body is involved in a way that it isn't when I'm just listening on speakers and not playing my instrument.

 

[MTB1973]

Stop me if you‘ve heard this one before…a strawman, a deaf man, and a carpenter walk into a bar…

 

[Stratzrus]

Feel is real.

But back to the OP...

Right now I'm sooooooo disinterested in "FRFR", solid state poweramps, and tbh even amp modelling in general.

My back still works. I'll hulk a 4x12 up some bloody stairs if I have to. Give me smoke, fumes, valves, fire, and rosy cheeked Scottish birds who can drink me under the table.

I think modelers have their place. The right tool for the right job and all that.

I think "FRFR" has its place too. I finally unboxed my Fender FR-12 today and hope to test it out tomorrow with the FM-9. Would that rig cut it in a band with another guitarist playing Rock? I don't know.

In the situation Orvillian was describing in the OP I'd probably take my Sig:X with my FatBottom 2x12 and use the FM9 for time based effects only in the loop.

My back still works most of the time and I want to keep it that way so my days of hauling a 4x12 up stairs are over. Actually, they never started. I did it once and swore I'd never do it again.

But I love the FM9 for playing at home and it can't be beat for late night practice. For me, the Sig:X and a cab is not the way to go at 3 AM if you live in an apartment or in a duplex.

I'm hoping that the FR-12 and FM9 will pair well and will be a good option for jam sessions without another guitarist or for sitting in as the only guitarist. I think it could be.

But in an over 90 dB Rock situation with another guitarist, yes give me my tube amp and two or more speakers.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Do you notice how you keep strawmanning what I say, in order to repeat the same point you've made over and over? Just cut to the chase and say you don't think feel is real. It is much more honest dialogue.

I think it is real. I think there is a distinction to be made between what we hear, and what we feel when playing.

And again, if everything for you is down to the ears, the ear canal, the ossicles, and the cochlea (lol), then how do you explain a deaf person's ability to distinguish one vibration from another?

I'll put it another way - when something is recorded, I cannot feel anything. I can only feel something when I'm in the room with the amplification device. I'm not saying the ears aren't involved in feel. They are. But I am saying the body is involved in a way that it isn't when I'm just listening on speakers and not playing my instrument.

Oh, god. We've gone from conversation to debate club mode.

If your question is "do I believe we feel sound" I conceded that point WAY up thread, in I think the first post. In our chest, in our arm hair

The issue under discussion, as I understood it, was whether folks that post on guitar forums about the sound of guitar gear and say what SKU said roughly: "They sound the same; but there is a difference in feel" are talking out of their ass/mis-naming their experience/whatever.

In that context, sure, a deaf person can probably feel the difference between a kick drum and a bass guitar. MAYBE an electric guitar and a bass guitar? But those aren't relative to the point I thought we were discussing which is whether the "feeling" of sound somehow lets us make finer distinctions than our hearing can. Surely the deaf person isn't going to be able to distinguish a Les Paul from a Strat, much less an underpowered class D amp from a glorious tube amp.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Do you notice how you keep strawmanning what I say, in order to repeat the same point you've made over and over? Just cut to the chase and say you don't think feel is real. It is much more honest dialogue.

I think it is real. I think there is a distinction to be made between what we hear, and what we feel when playing.

And again, if everything for you is down to the ears, the ear canal, the ossicles, and the cochlea (lol), then how do you explain a deaf person's ability to distinguish one vibration from another?

I'll put it another way - when something is recorded, I cannot feel anything. I can only feel something when I'm in the room with the amplification device. I'm not saying the ears aren't involved in feel. They are. But I am saying the body is involved in a way that it isn't when I'm just listening on speakers and not playing my instrument.

Just trying to further a conversation, not get into debate club mode, so dunno if you'd consider this strawmannirg you or red herring or appealing to authority or whatever, but here's my question for you:

When someone says two guitar playing experiences feel differently, do you think the feeling they are talking about is the result of the air pressure being generated by the guitar amp thingy, or something else?

 

[SKU]

Oh, god. We've gone from conversation to debate club mode.

If your question is "do I believe we feel sound" I conceded that point WAY up thread, in I think the first post. In our chest, in our arm hair

The issue under discussion, as I understood it, was whether folks that post on guitar forums about the sound of guitar gear and say what SKU said roughly: "They sound the same; but there is a difference in feel" are talking out of their ass/mis-naming their experience/whatever.

In that context, sure, a deaf person can probably feel the difference between a kick drum and a bass guitar. MAYBE an electric guitar and a bass guitar? But those aren't relative to the point I thought we were discussing which is whether the "feeling" of sound somehow lets us make finer distinctions than our hearing can. Surely the deaf person isn't going to be able to distinguish a Les Paul from a Strat, much less an underpowered class D amp from a glorious tube amp.

And you keep ignoring that there's an object between the guitar and the amp. Similar to the fact that it's not your computer that cannot comprehend, it's not the Internet that spawns the thoughts of what can be considered "the natural man", it's not my computer that renders this text by itself. It's the person looking at your device's display at this very moment.

It's like trying to explain maths to a tree. It's not that the tree is stupid, it's not that the tree is ignorant, it's not that the tree is lying ... it's just not in its nature to understand such things ...

 

[SKU]

Or, for example, when you compare two cars and say one feels more sluggish ... do you go out of your way to run "scientific" tests on both cars in an attempt to rationalise what you felt? If someone asks how did the car feel, will you go on a rant on them and tell them that there's nothing to feel about a car it's just a bunch of parts in a chassis? Does the thing you felt as sluggish even have anything to do with the car or it's more about your perception? How come some people don't feel that the car is sluggish but others do...
And in conclusion what does feel mean in this context?
For me feel can even be something like with some rigs playing feels stiff while with others it feels more giving. Or it can be that some amps feel dry while others are fluid, some are more direct while others are more distant ... How do you explain this with charts and diagrams? I'm sure there is an explanation for all of this but it doesn't matter when you seem stuck on a somewhat ironic rant that:
- "feel" doesn't exist because there's nothing to feel with a guitar because there's only sound
- they feel different ( IRONIC ) but that's just because they sound differently.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Just trying to further a conversation, not get into debate club mode, so dunno if you'd consider this strawmannirg you or red herring or appealing to authority or whatever, but here's my question for you:

When someone says two guitar playing experiences feel differently, do you think the feeling they are talking about is the result of the air pressure being generated by the guitar amp thingy, or something else?

I’ll bite…
To me it means what I expect to happen when I strike the string at a specific angle, spot, strength, location etc…
Which more often then not differed from circuit to circuit but IME stays the same when it’s captures or models sharing the same input circuitry.

IOW what I said earlier the way the attack ramps up to its peak before the decay starts.

 

[PBGas]

Nothing is like a screaming 100W head and 412. Its pure magic.

 

[MTB1973]

A lot of us simply can’t unleash a 100W head.

 

[Stratzrus]

A lot of us simply can’t unleash a 100W head.

 

[MTB1973]

 

[megametal7]

Papa roach lmfao…..