Those Seymour Duncan Powerstage amps are utter tripe

[Orvillain]

That the "human aspect" is "oo this doesn't actually sound nicer but it feels nicer cus it has the brand/specs/etc. I like" reeks of woo woo homeopathic materialism to me.

This is where I disagree with you. Because we've not really focused on brands nor specs nor "etc" here. Literally just talking about the experience when playing the amp.


????

 

[Orvillain]

Meh. I disagree. The only differences there can be are SONIC differences. You have clearly articulated what SOUNDED off to you, and I can clearly describe what SOUNDS off to me with an amp that is not performing properly. But if somebody can't tell me what the sonic differences are and have to resort to the word "feel", then they are observing shit with their spider-senses. I get that sonic differences are more easily experienced first hand, etc., but once it gets to "uh, it feels different" and one can't describe, even poorly and inarticulately, what the actual sonic difference is... its not an empirical observation, imo, its an emotional/biased/whatever response. Which is totally fine. Play what makes you feel happy, regardless of the reasons. All of this is just passing time until death comes knocking on the door.

If I say something like....

"yo! dude! This amp goes a bit quiet when I hit this G chord!"

Is that a statement about feel, or a statement about sonics?

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Drum samples.

It doesn't matter how many times you sample a ride cymbal. Playing a real one feels significantly different to playing a sample based one. The resonance build up is completely different, the reactivity is completely different.

I say that as someone who has sampled ride cymbals and other drums in great detail, for over a decade.

Just because we cannot quantify a phenomenon, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

See? You provided sonic differences.

 

[Will Chen]

My friend, there is no "observation" in absence of an observer! All these things are inherently human. There is no such thing as objective perception for example ...

Right. You're completely missing the point...

 

[luckymethod]

Yeah, that's been my experience for sure. People love to argue about ""FRFR"" and how power amps are modeled so you should never need anything but a perfectly flat amp, etc, but there is an additional piece which is * actually making a sound louder * with its own physics that people tend to brush off as unimportant. I'm not gonna say 'class D bad' since it's used literally everywhere for everything and sounds great, but IME specifically with guitar poweramps AB and tubes have generally felt better to me against real cabs in the room. And that "thump" / transient response is a big part of it.

You can do things just fine with a class D as long as it's sized appropriately for the job at hand. Cliff's message itself mentions a Crown amp doing a fine job at moving air. What you can't do is get a tiny class D amplifier, use it way beyond its limits and expect it to deliver the same experience as something more capable.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

If I say something like....

"yo! dude! This amp goes a bit quiet when I hit this G chord!"

Is that a statement about feel, or a statement about sonics?

I dunno. And I'm not gonna go back up thread. But my recollection of what I read when I hit the "show ignored content" to give my ass some context to this thread, is that one of the posts was something that clearly was inserting the "feel" word in place of actual empirical observation and I could understand why that might make some folks roll eyes.

 

[SKU]

Right. You're completely missing the point...

I'm not missing the point. You are using terms wrongly. Personal perception is a pleonasm.
I also think that you don't understand what fact means...
It's a fact that I can observe "feel" for example. It's a fact that you can't.
Is it a fact that everyone can observe "feel"? Well, based on these prepositions ... I would say no. Does "feel" exist? Well ... it depends on what you mean by it existing remotely from an observer in the universal sense ... but you could say that it's a fact that feel exists for some people.
These things are all true.




Of course this is to be ignorant of the fact that indeed "feel" is just an English word. It could be probably broken down to a set of qualities but all the previous facts still remain true regardless of how you name this phenomena.

 

[Orvillain]

See? You provided sonic differences.

I'm not sure I did tbh.

I think I provided a text description of a feel phenomenon. The reason is, so much of the sonic differences when playing a ride cymbal are dependent on how you play it; and that is the source of feel.

Does it make sense to say that "feel" is the resultant combination of a physical movement and a sonic output ?

 

[Orvillain]

I dunno.

Right, cool! At least we're all in the same place then; which is trying to understand this topic and trying to come to terms with what we think.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I'm not sure I did tbh.

I think I provided a text description of a feel phenomenon. The reason is, so much of the sonic differences when playing a ride cymbal are dependent on how you play it; and that is the source of feel.

Does it make sense to say that "feel" is the resultant combination of a physical movement and a sonic output ?

You said the resonances build-up differently, which tells me that (1) I'm not listening to the attack, but instead the release/decay; and (2) that I'm probably trying to listen not on a 1-shot hit, but a riding the ride phenomenon.

I get that sometimes it is hard to put words to sound, and that ANY sonic difference means a different FEELING while playing. But if someone has been playing guitar long enough to be at the point of comparing a modeler through a class-D power amp into a cab to a tube amp, and post on forums about that experience, and all they've got is "tube amps just feel better. That's all I got". I understand someone having a

 

[Orvillain]

You said the resonances build-up differently, which tells me that (1) I'm not listening to the release/decay, not the attack; and (2) that I'm probably trying to listen not on a 1-shot hit, but a riding the ride phenomenon.

I don't know why this means "feel don't real" tbh. Genuinely, I'm not taking the piss - you don't think that "feel" is real??? Am I reading you right??

"tube amps just feel better. That's all I got".

Not exactly sure that is what we're saying here.


Feel to me is a sort of catch all term that tries to summarise the combination of electronics, performance, and signal.

 

[yeky83]

This is where I disagree with you. Because we've not really focused on brands nor specs nor "etc" here. Literally just talking about the experience when playing the amp.


????

Then you don't understand what SKU's saying... again, my replies to him are directed at him, not to you or the rest of the thread.

 

[Orvillain]

Then you don't understand what SKU's saying... again, my replies to him are directed at him, not to you or the rest of the thread.

PLEASE NOTICE ME SEMPAI!!!

 

[yeky83]

Feel to me is a sort of catch all term that tries to summarise the combination of electronics, performance, and signal.

Right. And SKU's been saying "we're humans and are subjective so feel is just what I feel devoid of electronics, performance, and signal."

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Not exactly sure that is what we're saying here.

I never said YOU or the royal "we" were. This whole side-bar is just the result of me trying to give you some context about why yeky might have gotten a little more aggressive with his response to SKU. Going back upthread and revealing ignored content to find that I'm not crazy - he literally said this: "Let's not forget that the issue is not necessarily with how an amp sounds but rather how it feels.". When I saw that I was instantly in "Oh, I get why yeky gave him the poop" and was trying to point out exactly where his rage came from to you.

As I said, I'm not trying to be "the feel police". I'm not in the "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FEEL". Sound is literally how our brain interprets what our ear drums feel, so, yeah. I get that folks use "feel" as a placeholder for sonic differences they can't quite explain. But I do find the assertion that, when comparing the experience of playing two electric guitar things, if one agrees that there is no difference in sound between them, but nonetheless asserts there is a difference in "feel", we've gone past empiricism and into mysticism.

 

[Orvillain]

Right. And SKU's been saying "we're humans and are subjective so feel is just what I feel devoid of electronics, performance, and signal."

Gotcha. Yeah okay, I can see why you'd think that I guess.

There's probably a nugget of truth to it. Feeling is certainly important... we are talking about music after all... and the last couple of posts have been along the lines of "hey buddy, you feel what you feel, I aint gonna stop you" type vibe... which would basically fall in line with what he's saying.

But I think there's a bit more to it than just subjectivity.

 

[SKU]

Right. And SKU's been saying "we're humans and are subjective so feel is just what I feel devoid of electronics, performance, and signal."

I'm obviously not saying that. You employ a meme-like type of thinking. Everything needs to reduced to simple concepts, placed into perfectly defined buckets. I'am also saying that I want you to describe an experiment to test feel. And if you repeat the same "measure scientifically" how in this world would you confirm or deny the idea of "feel" when you can't produce identical soundwaves out of two systems? How do you isolate "feel"?

 

[deathbyguitar]

I have to wonder what kinds of developments will be on the horizon for power amp technology. Class D is on to something I wonder if graphene will make its way into amp designs and blow our damn minds

 

[Orvillain]

if one agrees that there is no difference in sound between them, but nonetheless asserts there is a difference in "feel", we've gone past empiricism and into mysticism.

I often find that some people just reduce "sound" down to frequency response. Could explain it.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I often find that some people just reduce "sound" down to frequency response. Could explain it.

Equally worthy of