Those Seymour Duncan Powerstage amps are utter tripe

[Orvillain]

Isn't it though? The point of those obscenely high class D wattage ratings is handing peaks. I've got no real dog in this fight as any time I play with any real volume these days requires plugs, just curious.

Well when I'm using my tube amps, I'm not ever pushing 100watt, even when they're at rehearsal levels. It is probably closer to 40-50watt.

But the amp still sounds better.

Even though a watt is indeed a watt..... I tend to think there is more than wattage going on. Probably something to do with dampening in the power section, as Cliff alludes to in his comments in the previous screenshots.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I hear what you're saying, and on paper I agree. But I swear down these prepackaged class D amps are doing something to the low-end in order to obtain their power-rating. Filtering all of it out so that it doesn't reach clipping point as soon, something like that.

I'm not an electronics engineer, but even with clean headroom what I hear from these amps is they remove a ton of low frequency content that just sounds great on guitar, particularly for high gain.

My technical understanding of power amps isn't quite what it could be, for sure. I'm certainly not trying in any way to say you're full of shit or anything. It very well could be that my "not focused on the chugs" is part of why I don't have a problem with them. Given how widely they are used with Bass guitars I can't imagine its like, a high pass filter or anything.

But transients, especially low end transients like chugging, is where you see big spikes in power output from a power amp. Maybe the Class D can't handle the chugs; maybe the chugs take an amp that seems otherwise at a point in its power band that its breathing easy to push up to a level where it is hitting much higher distortion numbers for the 250ms of the chug or something?

 

[SKU]

One common complain with modellers and Class D(weeb) amps is latency. But during my "research" I found out that it's not really latency that is the problem. For example I can put a dry 100% mixed delay in front of my tube amp. I can add 20ms of "latency" and while I can feel that the sound is delayed, it still feels "direct" and "amp like".
The problem seems to have to do with transients instead... The way the sound builds up or rather doesn't build up. Kinda like a long attack compressor.
And judging by what Cliff also said in that post about power reserves ... Class D amps will put out power but "slowly", increasingly ... once it builds up while tube amps have a tone of instantaneous power on tap to render the massive transients like for example with palm mutes.
Even class AB transistor amps fare much better IMO.

 

[Orvillain]

My technical understanding of power amps isn't quite what it could be, for sure. I'm certainly not trying in any way to say you're full of shit or anything. It very well could be that my "not focused on the chugs" is part of why I don't have a problem with them. Given how widely they are used with Bass guitars I can't imagine its like, a high pass filter or anything.

But transients, especially low end transients like chugging, is where you see big spikes in power output from a power amp. Maybe the Class D can't handle the chugs; maybe the chugs take an amp that seems otherwise at a point in its power band that its breathing easy to push up to a level where it is hitting much higher distortion numbers for the 250ms of the chug or something?

Maybe it is to do with slew rates or something like that?

I agree with you. Given how widely they're used with bass guitars, it can't be as simple as a high-pass filter. But maybe something else. I'm at the limits of my knowledge really. I just know the few class D amps I've used, I just didn't like - even when volume matched.

 

[Will Chen]

Well when I'm using my tube amps, I'm not ever pushing 100watt, even when they're at rehearsal levels. It is probably closer to 40-50watt.

But the amp still sounds better.

Even though a watt is indeed a watt..... I tend to think there is more than wattage going on. Probably something to do with dampening in the power section, as Cliff alludes to in his comments in the previous screenshots.

No, I know what you're saying. You may be 100% right and some of these manufacturers are putting filtering in to boost numbers for marketing purposes. But we can look at the pro audio and bass amp world and see what's going on with class D we can see the tech itself has no issues generating low frequencies it's just they "over spec" by a huge margin in order to be able to handle peak.

 

[Orvillain]

No, I know what you're saying. You may be 100% right and some of these manufacturers are putting filtering in to boost numbers for marketing purposes. But we can look at the pro audio and bass amp world and see what's going on with class D we can see the tech itself has no issues generating low frequencies it's just they "over spec" by a huge margin in order to be able to handle peak.

Yeah, like someone else said... these amps reproduce their rated measurements in short bursts.. but cannot reproduce them continuously. So you're slamming away at some knuckleheaded drop-c palm muted metal riff.. and the amp just sorta gives up.... perhaps.

I'm definitely not a valve amp "woo woo" type of guy. I think there is physics and circuitry that explains all this stuff. I just don't understand it, coz fundamentally I'm a dumbass.

 

[Will Chen]

One common complain with modellers and Class D(weeb) amps is latency. But during my "research" I found out that it's not really latency that is the problem. For example I can put a dry 100% mixed delay in front of my tube amp. I can add 20ms of "latency" and while I can feel that the sound is delayed, it still feels "direct" and "amp like".
The problem seems to have to do with transients instead... The way the sound builds up or rather doesn't build up. Kinda like a long attack compressor.
And judging by what Cliff also said in that post about power reserves ... Class D amps will put out power but "slowly", increasingly ... after a while once it builds up while tube amps have a tone of power to render the instantaneous massive transients like for example with palm mutes.
Even class AB transistor amps fare much better IMO.

Look at the industries where generating low end is paramount and you'll see class D everywhere.

 

[Orvillain]

The problem seems to have to do with transients instead... The way the sound builds up or rather doesn't build up. Kinda like a long attack compressor.
And judging by what Cliff also said in that post about power reserves ... Class D amps will put out power but "slowly", increasingly ... once it builds up while tube amps have a tone of power to render the instantaneous massive transients like for example with palm mutes.
Even class AB transistor amps fare much better IMO.

I think this is probably the right train of thought.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Maybe it is to do with slew rates or something like that?

I agree with you. Given how widely they're used with bass guitars, it can't be as simple as a high-pass filter. But maybe something else. I'm at the limits of my knowledge really. I just know the few class D amps I've used, I just didn't like - even when volume matched.

I will say this -- every gotdamn power amp I've ever used, regardless of technology employed, has sounded different. For my and my use case, as long as I'm conservatively well within the limits of "still very low distortion numbers" they've all worked well for me thankfully. Because otherwise I would find modeling to be a royal pain in the arse if I was having to shop around for my ideal power amp solution to use with it.

 

[SKU]

Look at the industries where generating low end is paramount and you'll see class D everywhere.

Yes but that's only for practicality purposes and those amps are MASSIVELY overpowered. And very expensive.

 

[Orvillain]

I will say this -- every gotdamn power amp I've ever used, regardless of technology employed, has sounded different. For my and my use case, as long as I'm conservatively well within the limits of "still very low distortion numbers" they've all worked well for me thankfully. Because otherwise I would find modeling to be a royal pain in the arse if I was having to shop around for my ideal power amp solution to use with it.

Yeah again, don't disagree with that. They do all sound different.

 

[Will Chen]

Yeah, like someone else said... these amps reproduce their rated measurements in short bursts.. but cannot reproduce them continuously. So you're slamming away at some knuckleheaded drop-c palm muted metal riff.. and the amp just sorta gives up.... perhaps.

I'm definitely not a valve amp "woo woo" type of guy. I think there is physics and circuitry that explains all this stuff. I just don't understand it, coz fundamentally I'm a dumbass.

Well...we don't really know in your H2H how that Helix was dialed in. A great many people put low cuts in presets these days thinking about generating a studio sound on stage. Class D doesn't have any issues generating loud low sounds for extended periods, you can here it at literally any arena show you attend. Can't speak to the SD stuff though.

 

[Will Chen]

Yes but that's only for practicality purposes and those amps are MASSIVELY overpowered. And very expensive.

That's the point. With a class D design, you want a way higher wattage to handle peaks cleanly. Cliff is talking about a class A/B's ability to essentially operate beyond it's rating. As I mentioned in another post, can't speak to the SD, but I've played with a few bassists with high wattage class D amps that are fucking beyond loud and preserve all the low end.

 

[Orvillain]

Well...we don't really know in your H2H how that Helix was dialed in. A great many people put low cuts in presets these days thinking about generating a studio sound on stage. Class D doesn't have any issues generating loud low sounds for extended periods, you can here it at literally any arena show you attend. Can't speak to the SD stuff though.

It is possibly a wattage thing and headroom thing.

I didn't look at his patch either, so I don't know. But if the "compression" theory is correct, then even if the amp is running 170watt during his lead lines, soon as he kicks in with a palm mute... who knows... could drop to 10watts for all I know!?!

 

[SKU]

Well...we don't really know in your H2H how that Helix was dialed in. A great many people put low cuts in presets these days thinking about generating a studio sound on stage. Class D doesn't have any issues generating loud low sounds for extended periods, you can here it at literally any arena show you attend. Can't speak to the SD stuff though.

My concern is not that Class D cannot sustain low frequencies. My concern is how fast does the amp reach full output for a percussive low/mid sound for example. OR - and probably this is even more important - is there any power left to render acute mid/high sounds when the amp is overwhelmed with low sounds ? Talking about transients ..

 

[deathbyguitar]

Now that I think about it, I have to wonder if class D will work better with modelers when using high/low pass filters. My sense is that by reducing or eliminating super high and low frequencies (that might be useless in a live mix anyway), maybe that helps the power amp operate more efficiently? I don't know a ton about power amp technology and such but this has got me curious.

Also, I recently bought 4 Yamaha DHR12Ms on a whim like a fucking psycho so I need to justify my investment

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

On wattage for use with modelers:

60 watts of good, heavy class A/B power is not enough to get as loud as I sometimes like to play in my 12'x12'x8' jam room without noticeably distorting, even playing tweed amps where a big open G power chord from a tele bridge pick up is about as demanding as things get

 

[Will Chen]

My concern is not that Class D cannot sustain low frequencies. My concern is how fast does the amp reach full output for a percussive low/mid sound for example. OR - and probably this is even more important - is there any power left to render acute mid/high sounds when the amp is overwhelmed with low sounds ? Talking about transients ..

Dude. My buddy's bass amp is loud as hell. I've sat in with outdoor shows and his rig has had no issues without PA support, and that's with the drums miced. It has absolutely zero issues handling a low B or a fast percussive slap line (or both combined) and it's a class D set up. I seriously doubt there is something magical here in terms of low end which works for bass and not guitars...

 

[Orvillain]

On wattage for use with modelers:

60 watts of good, heavy class A/B power is not enough to get as loud as I sometimes like to play in my 12'x12'x8' jam room without noticeably distorting, even playing tweed amps where a big open G power chord from a tele bridge pick up is about as demanding as things get

My chord can beat up your chord!

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Now that I think about it, I have to wonder if class D will work better with modelers when using high/low pass filters. My sense is that by reducing or eliminating super high and low frequencies (that might be useless in a live mix anyway), maybe that helps the power amp operate more efficiently? I don't know a ton about power amp technology and such but this has got me curious.

Also, I recently bought 4 Yamaha DHR12Ms on a whim like a fucking psycho so I need to justify my investment

Low-end cuts will definitely help -- those frequencies are taking a lot of current (i.e., power) to reproduce so cutting them out will leave more current available for everything else.