The Digital Doubt

[Sascha Franck]

Maybe if I was, I have enough experience that I wouldn’t need to adjust much live…

I could easily counter that. But then...

Please know that I’m just being an asshole for fun, this isn’t serious…

Dito.

 

[Sascha Franck]

On a more serious note: Really, it already paid off that I went through all the hoops to now have a completely "global-block-alized" system, allowing me to adjust any relevant parameter "rig-wide". Even better that I don't need to bow down anymore but simply drag some faders on a tablet.

 

[Eagle]

So there. Live playing is my job. And rest assured, I went through great lengths to make "FRFR" monitoring work for me. And in 95% of all cases it's working better than any real cab I ever owned.

I don’t doubt for you that works. I have many full time pro friends that just use digital for a variety of practical reasons. Even Guthrie is mostly FM9 Laney frfr these days.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Honestly, if Jay could snag me a reflection free IR of my 1x12 loaded with a silver bell and one of it loaded with my Eminence Alessandro at my preferred playing angle, I’d love to go FRFR and it would absolutely be my idealized cab - since much more of the room would hear what I hear.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I have many full time pro friends that just use digital for a variety of practical reasons.

For me it's not even about digital or practical reasons (even if those were the reason to start out with all that). I actually happen to prefer FRFR monitoring over real cabs and in case I could freely choose between the two, it'd be FRFR. Yes, ideally I'd use a somewhat stacked system (as in using, say, 2 x 10" wedges) for some more ooomph (because yes, volume *is* a fun thing), but even without that, I prefer FRFR. I almost never had that much control over my sound before.
I might be an outlier here (as the usual advice seems to be to run your modeler through a traditional cab), but then, be it so.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Honestly, if Jay could snag me a reflection free IR of my 1x12 loaded with a silver bell and one of it loaded with my Eminence Alessandro at my preferred playing angle

Couldn't you do that yourself if you really wanted? Sure, you'd need a large enough room, a decent poweramp and a measuring mic - but it'd be a one time affair.

There's another "trick" that I used to refine some IRs I shot of my cabs, which was grabbing a "ballpark" IR from whatever collection (ok, I rather mixed some together), then reamping my guitar and kinda moving around with a mic that sort of captured the positions of my head (I only used a lowly Rode NT1, but it worked rather well) and finally use a match EQ to superimpose that recording over the "ballpark" IR that I used. When done, I created a final IR. That way, the pre-selected IR was serving as a "hey, I'm a real cab" thing (which also comes with certain timebased properties) whereas the match EQ (which ignores all timebased things) would do the frequency correction work.
In fact, it's not even remotely as complicated as it reads.

Another thing I also did was placing my FRFR wedge next to my two favourite cabs and A/B between the wedge and either cab at stage volume. I could then tell whether I was really getting close and I could as well finetune some things using EQs. Did all that in Logic, using around 5-6 tracks with different IRs and plain EQs loaded, so I could play through that in realtime and switch to the cabs instead.
Worked out pretty well.

I absolutely don't care much whether anything sounds like any real deal, though, all I really wanted was a mere handful of super balanced IRs to suit all my live needs.

 

[Sidler72]

If your using an actual cab There is still some compromises though in my case I prefer an open back cab for clean or EOB but for hard rock or heavier stuff I prefer the thump of a closed back. So although I have both I’m not dragging both to the gig lol

 

[Eagle]

For me it's not even about digital or practical reasons (even if those were the reason to start out with all that). I actually happen to prefer "FRFR" monitoring over real cabs and in case I could freely choose between the two, it'd be "FRFR". Yes, ideally I'd use a somewhat stacked system (as in using, say, 2 x 10" wedges) for some more ooomph (because yes, volume *is* a fun thing), but even without that, I prefer "FRFR". I almost never had that much control over my sound before.
I might be an outlier here (as the usual advice seems to be to run your modeler through a traditional cab), but then, be it so.

It’s all about pleasing yourself with whatever you use anyway. If you’re happy you play better and then the audience might be able to tell the difference.

 

[ChordInversion]

Sometimes I think the killer design feature would be to allow you to load the models/IRs/mic placements you want, and only the ones you want, and never interact with then stuff you don't want, even while scrolling options. The PC editor/librarian could give you the option to add and remove models and features, killing analysis paralysis before it starts.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Sometimes I think the killer design feature would be to allow you to load the models/IRs/mic placements you want, and only the ones you want, and never interact with then stuff you don't want, even while scrolling options. The PC editor/librarian could give you the option to add and remove models and features, killing analysis paralysis before it starts.

This feature is the beauty of the Kenper UI.

 

[Orvillain]

This gives me doubts.

 

[Joshual-L]

For me fractal is the best compromise.

You can just tweak an amp like you would in real life or you can go full geek.

For the irs…. Well I spent a lot on them lol. And one day I discovered solodallas and they are just amazing for Marshalls at least for my plexi taste I made some mix of them and voila. I’m an happy man.

I feel less and less the need to tweak my presets.
And even if there’s one gazilion amps in fractal world I’m just happy with the plexis and 2203.

I’m played tube amps all my life and was the guitar>wha>amp kind of guy.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Yeah, the not trusting of one’s own ears was my bigger point more than why options can be a detriment.

So, why we certainly deviated a lot from that, it's still all connected. A lot even, at least IMO. Apart from what mbenigni mentioned, I think it's also simply because option paralysis is the best friend (or catalysator) of ear fatigue.
After listening to 463 IRs, you very likely won't be able to tell whether you prefer the 0.5in or 2.0in version anymore.
And it's not getting better with amps, not only because there's so many of them but especially as you don't run into their physical limitations anymore (see mbenigni). You can now have a Champ running clean at the same volume as a JC-120. And it might even sound great. So instead of one clean amp channel option there's now 50. Same thing, option paralysis -> no need to commit yourself to anything -> ear fatique -> no way to trust your ears anymore, even less so in case you never experienced what things were like using the real deal.

Add to this that there's tons of folks telling you this and another ton of folks telling you that. Possibly all creating great sounds of what they're using.
And add to this gazillions of gearfluencers telling you that unit XYZ is the final answer (to whatever it might be...) with the next unit to deliver the final answer to the same thing just being around the corner.

Back in my "formative years" I had one guitar, one amp, one or two dirt boxes and maybe a delay and a chorus pedal. So making final choices was a lot easier as there wasn't much to choose from, there's also been no YT or anything to teach me tricks or to tell me what to buy next. As a result I could only use what I had and simply had to trust my ears. I'm not saying it was any better, but making some decisions simply has been easier as you were forced by material limitations, something basically not existing anymore for the average guitar player in the western world.

 

[Eagle]

I have endless possibilities with my digital rigs but the feel and dynamics are not as good. Because I don’t need to replicate a whole bunch of sounds this is the most important part. If I was still playing out I would probably use an FM9 but I am not.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

So, why we certainly deviated a lot from that, it's still all connected. A lot even, at least IMO. Apart from what mbenigni mentioned, I think it's also simply because option paralysis is the best friend (or catalysator) of ear fatigue.
After listening to 463 IRs, you very likely won't be able to tell whether you prefer the 0.5in or 2.0in version anymore.
And it's not getting better with amps, not only because there's so many of them but especially as you don't run into their physical limitations anymore (see mbenigni). You can now have a Champ running clean at the same volume as a JC-120. And it might even sound great. So instead of one clean amp channel option there's now 50. Same thing, option paralysis -> no need to commit yourself to anything -> ear fatique -> no way to trust your ears anymore, even less so in case you never experienced what things were like using the real deal.

Add to this that there's tons of folks telling you this and another ton of folks telling you that. Possibly all creating great sounds of what they're using.
And add to this gazillions of gearfluencers telling you that unit XYZ is the final answer (to whatever it might be...) with the next unit to deliver the final answer to the same thing just being around the corner.

Back in my "formative years" I had one guitar, one amp, one or two dirt boxes and maybe a delay and a chorus pedal. So making final choices was a lot easier as there wasn't much to choose from, there's also been no YT or anything to teach me tricks or to tell me what to buy next. As a result I could only use what I had and simply had to trust my ears. I'm not saying it was any better, but making some decisions simply has been easier as you were forced by material limitations, something basically not existing anymore for the average guitar player in the western world.

Damn, this is really how I experience this. Any amp I pick almost ends up the same. So a Princeton Reverb and a JMT45... they just come very close to sounding the same

+

After scrolling through 7 amps in 30-45 minutes... I just feel tired, go for something to drink and pick the amp that was already a preset.

 

[Sascha Franck]

After scrolling through 7 amps in 30-45 minutes... I just feel tired, go for something to drink and pick the amp that was already a preset.

Believe me, it's pretty much no different for me. Now that my main setup (at least for the time being) is pretty much done, I thought I'd look for some variety regarding my Stomp patches (which is serving as my "all things dirt" platform in the current setup), spending quite some time on checking various amp and pedal combinations. In the end I switched back to the patch I was using during the last gigs and it was just every bit as good (or bad) as the 3-4 new patches I saved. Especially for live purposes it'd make pretty much no differences which of them I was using, it's pretty much impossible to tell which will possibly work better in which situation. For me, "trust your ears" is at least getting pretty blurred.
And I'd rather spend that time playing instead of looking for new core sounds.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Believe me, it's pretty much no different for me. Now that my main setup (at least for the time being) is pretty much done, I thought I'd look for some variety regarding my Stomp patches (which is serving as my "all things dirt" platform in the current setup), spending quite some time on checking various amp and pedal combinations. In the end I switched back to the patch I was using during the last gigs and it was just every bit as good (or bad) than the 3-4 new patches I saved. Especially for live purposes it'd make pretty much no differences which of them I was using, it's pretty much impossible to tell which will possibly work better in which situarion. For me, "trust your ears" is at least getting pretty blurred.
And I'd rather spend that time playing instead of looking for new core sounds.

You also really liked the Super Reverb right?

 

[aivoryuk]

The thing with IR's and moveable mics is it is a little like chicken and egg. Do you make an amp choice (let's say EQ) or do you select a different IR or move a mic around.
Traditional recording with cabs etc would be get it to sound good to the player in the room and the engineering side is to capture that sound.

 

[Eagle]

Digital can so often just be like five different sets of EQ connected to a decidedly mhe core sound.
There is also no way an impulse response captures the interactions in a remotely similar way to the cab. You may find you prefer it but it’s definitely not the same.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Digital can so often just be like five different sets of EQ connected to a decidedly mhe core sound.
There is also no way an impulse response captures the interactions in a remotely similar way to the cab. You may find you prefer it but it’s definitely not the same.

Does that also apply to lower volumes, like volume 1-2?

To elaborate: Let's say we have a Fender Princeton in our Helix and we place that on gain 7. With EQ and such you can create a really full sound, but it will be a "coming from your speakers" sound. Like you said, you may like it, you may not. For each their own.

Then we have a Fender Princeton standing in our bedroom / home office. It can't be played any louder than volume 2. Do you then still have that "interaction"? Or do you need more gain for that? (i do understand at real low volumes.. the sound becomes flat and dead, but that's also when you put the gain on 1-2 and the master on 1-2 in the Helix).