The Digital Doubt

[mercifulfuzziness]

Believe me, it's pretty much no different for me. Now that my main setup (at least for the time being) is pretty much done, I thought I'd look for some variety regarding my Stomp patches (which is serving as my "all things dirt" platform in the current setup), spending quite some time on checking various amp and pedal combinations. In the end I switched back to the patch I was using during the last gigs and it was just every bit as good (or bad) than the 3-4 new patches I saved. Especially for live purposes it'd make pretty much no differences which of them I was using, it's pretty much impossible to tell which will possibly work better in which situarion. For me, "trust your ears" is at least getting pretty blurred.
And I'd rather spend that time playing instead of looking for new core sounds.

You also really liked the Super Reverb right?

 

[aivoryuk]

The thing with IR's and moveable mics is it is a little like chicken and egg. Do you make an amp choice (let's say EQ) or do you select a different IR or move a mic around.
Traditional recording with cabs etc would be get it to sound good to the player in the room and the engineering side is to capture that sound.

 

[Eagle]

Digital can so often just be like five different sets of EQ connected to a decidedly mhe core sound.
There is also no way an impulse response captures the interactions in a remotely similar way to the cab. You may find you prefer it but it’s definitely not the same.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Digital can so often just be like five different sets of EQ connected to a decidedly mhe core sound.
There is also no way an impulse response captures the interactions in a remotely similar way to the cab. You may find you prefer it but it’s definitely not the same.

Does that also apply to lower volumes, like volume 1-2?

To elaborate: Let's say we have a Fender Princeton in our Helix and we place that on gain 7. With EQ and such you can create a really full sound, but it will be a "coming from your speakers" sound. Like you said, you may like it, you may not. For each their own.

Then we have a Fender Princeton standing in our bedroom / home office. It can't be played any louder than volume 2. Do you then still have that "interaction"? Or do you need more gain for that? (i do understand at real low volumes.. the sound becomes flat and dead, but that's also when you put the gain on 1-2 and the master on 1-2 in the Helix).

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Just on my Youtube feed. Philip Sayce going crazy on a modeler.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Digital can so often just be like five different sets of EQ connected to a decidedly mhe core sound.
There is also no way an impulse response captures the interactions in a remotely similar way to the cab. You may find you prefer it but it’s definitely not the same.

Dude, seriously, in case you don't know about the latest developments, just stick to what you know.

 

[Sascha Franck]

You also really liked the Super Reverb right?

Yeah, a lot even. But it might not end up being used in my live setup. For any riffy driven sounds, the Xtra Blue is a really great platform (I'm running it almost completely clean but there's a little "hair" to it) and I'm not sure whether the Super Reverb could compete.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Yeah, a lot even. But it might not end up being used in my live setup. For any riffy driven sounds, the Xtra Blue is a really great platform (I'm running it almost completely clean but there's a little "hair" to it) and I'm not sure whether the Super Reverb could compete.

Nice, didn’t know you could use that blue one clean ish

 

[DrewJD82]

So, why we certainly deviated a lot from that, it's still all connected. A lot even, at least IMO. Apart from what mbenigni mentioned, I think it's also simply because option paralysis is the best friend (or catalysator) of ear fatigue.
After listening to 463 IRs, you very likely won't be able to tell whether you prefer the 0.5in or 2.0in version anymore.
And it's not getting better with amps, not only because there's so many of them but especially as you don't run into their physical limitations anymore (see mbenigni). You can now have a Champ running clean at the same volume as a JC-120. And it might even sound great. So instead of one clean amp channel option there's now 50. Same thing, option paralysis -> no need to commit yourself to anything -> ear fatique -> no way to trust your ears anymore, even less so in case you never experienced what things were like using the real deal.

Add to this that there's tons of folks telling you this and another ton of folks telling you that. Possibly all creating great sounds of what they're using.
And add to this gazillions of gearfluencers telling you that unit XYZ is the final answer (to whatever it might be...) with the next unit to deliver the final answer to the same thing just being around the corner.

Back in my "formative years" I had one guitar, one amp, one or two dirt boxes and maybe a delay and a chorus pedal. So making final choices was a lot easier as there wasn't much to choose from, there's also been no YT or anything to teach me tricks or to tell me what to buy next. As a result I could only use what I had and simply had to trust my ears. I'm not saying it was any better, but making some decisions simply has been easier as you were forced by material limitations, something basically not existing anymore for the average guitar player in the western world.

This was what I was looking for when I made the OP. I don’t disagree with any of it and I can see how things have worked out the way they have as a result.

I think the aspect of it that may be my break point into ‘ok, boomer’ territory is the “who fucking cares as long as you’re having a good time?” + “if it sounds good, it is good” + “make that shit your own, make it do what you want to get your point across” that all seems to be missing from the sentiment of not trusting one’s own ears. Add in a hefty side of ‘tone is in the hands’ that gets referred to as a hot take to the point where I believe a lot of players aren’t going to have the chance to grasp as a result of not having to make the shitty gear work for you.

I think the part that sticks in my craw is that it didn’t matter to me that I had shitty gear when I was starting to gig, it didn’t matter that I went from good gear to shitty gear years into gigging, the reckless abandon aspect of things that seems to be missing currently. “IDGAF, I have an idea and I’m going to run with it regardless of my perceived limitations, with full confidence because I believe in my idea” and giving myself the chance to fall flat on my face in front of an audience, whether that’s by way of sticking a mic directly on the cone of a shitty speaker powered by a solid state amp and having a terrible tone coming out the PA or singing out of key half the set because I was still learning how to sing. Or getting the chance to record in a nice studio and just going for it because the option would be gone if I waited until I could buy nice gear to use in the studio.

I can admit that it’s easier for me to have this POV, years after having gone through all that stuff, it just bums me out when I see people who have GREAT gear questioning things like this. Pages on forums have been dedicated to asking for advice on the right IR to play in a bar where everyone offering advice has never been and can’t possibly provide the right answer, when just going to play the gig regardless of the doubt and then learning from it is the most effective answer to the question.

 

[ejecta]

Someone at the FAS forum the other day described carrying a gig bag and another bag with an FM3 in it torture. This is where we are with gear today. I have to tap out at that level of entitlement.

Pretty soon people will be bitching about carrying a guitar to a gig. Maybe a mid gig nap would help?

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

This was what I was looking for when I made the OP. I don’t disagree with any of it and I can see how things have worked out the way they have as a result.

I think the aspect of it that may be my break point into ‘ok, boomer’ territory is the “who fucking cares as long as you’re having a good time?” + “if it sounds good, it is good” + “make that shit your own, make it do what you want to get your point across” that all seems to be missing from the sentiment of not trusting one’s own ears. Add in a hefty side of ‘tone is in the hands’ that gets referred to as a hot take to the point where I believe a lot of players aren’t going to have the chance to grasp as a result of not having to make the shitty gear work for you.

I think the part that sticks in my craw is that it didn’t matter to me that I had shitty gear when I was starting to gig, it didn’t matter that I went from good gear to shitty gear years into gigging, the reckless abandon aspect of things that seems to be missing currently. “IDGAF, I have an idea and I’m going to run with it regardless of my perceived limitations, with full confidence because I believe in my idea” and giving myself the chance to fall flat on my face in front of an audience, whether that’s by way of sticking a mic directly on the cone of a shitty speaker powered by a solid state amp and having a terrible tone coming out the PA or singing out of key half the set because I was still learning how to sing. Or getting the chance to record in a nice studio and just going for it because the option would be gone if I waited until I could buy nice gear to use in the studio.

I can admit that it’s easier for me to have this POV, years after having gone through all that stuff, it just bums me out when I see people who have GREAT gear questioning things like this. Pages on forums have been dedicated to asking for advice on the right IR to play in a bar where everyone offering advice has never been and can’t possibly provide the right answer, when just going to play the gig regardless of the doubt and then learning from it is the most effective answer to the question.

Advocate of the devil. Without noobs like me a lot of these forums will have a lot less traffic specifically because these advice questions are being asked.

 

[Eagle]

Dude, seriously, in case you don't know about the latest developments, just stick to what you know.

Ok what irs do you suggest?

 

[FuzzyAce]

Just on my Youtube feed. Philip Sayce going crazy on a modeler.

I think this vid kind of sums up a lot of things. Sayce has committed himself to a way of playing where it really doesn't matter so much where he's getting his tone, but more that the tone has certain characteristics he can dig into. There's no timidness, no holding back, just playing. The gear becomes somewhat secondary at that point, because you're bending it to your will -- not the other way around. Dialing in a preset or amp is easier once you're comfortable with what you do as a player.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Ok what irs do you suggest?

None. You need to check them out for yourself.
But that's not what things are about. The lack of speaker/amp interaction you were mentioning is now part of the modeling process at least in some platforms - at least in the one you're using.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

The thing with IR's and moveable mics is it is a little like chicken and egg. Do you make an amp choice (let's say EQ) or do you select a different IR or move a mic around.

disagree. At least on the types of amps I use. The tone stack is there mostly to tune the breakup and compression character of the amp. If I’m liking everything about how the amp is responding to my playing, but it’s a little bright, I know not to touch the amp tone stacks but instead turn to the IR and/or post EQ.

My limited experience with “traditional” recording also is nothing like as described. My first stab at it, I got a good sound in the room, we recorded a take, neither I nor the engineer liked what we heard so we both worked to change things up so the sound going to tape sounded right. The only concern we had regarding the room sound was whether I could hear everything I needed and play the part right.

 

[ian_dissonance]

Digital can so often just be like five different sets of EQ connected to a decidedly mhe core sound.

This is a lot of people’s real amp tones, too. An IR is almost never SUPPOSED to sound or feel like a speaker on the floor behind you. The more people figure that out the happier they will be and the more informed gear choices they can make.

 

[Sascha Franck]

The gear becomes somewhat secondary at that point, because you're bending it to your will -- not the other way around.

Every bit this. And it's what I'm used to ever since I started. Not because I'm the second coming of Philip Sayce (I certainly ain't) but simply because for the most part, I just had no other choices.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

I think this vid kind of sums up a lot of things. Sayce has committed himself to a way of playing where it really doesn't matter so much where he's getting his tone, but more that the tone has certain characteristics he can dig into. There's no timidness, no holding back, just playing. The gear becomes somewhat secondary at that point, because you're bending it to your will -- not the other way around. Dialing in a preset or amp is easier once you're comfortable with what you do as a player.

I am one these guys who plays the song he practiced relatively good at home but fuck Jo entirely when I am with my teacher

 

[FuzzyAce]

None. You need to check them out for yourself.
But that's not what things are about. The lack of speaker/amp interaction you were mentioning is now part of the modeling process at least in some platforms - at least in the one you're using.

What kind of IR was the one you loaded with that Super preset recently? It's a nice change from some of the HX cabs, it has a different character in the lower midrange that is cool and it's not as toppy.

 

[ragingplatypi]

If I’m liking everything about how the amp is responding to my playing, but it’s a little bright, I know not to touch the amp tone stacks but instead turn to the IR and/or post EQ.

I like how you put this. It puts in perspective why we have all the extra parameters we can adjust.