The Digital Doubt

[dk_ace]

We're not talking about SRV/EJ/JB. My guess is the average digital modeler user, even the heavy tweaker, never would have experimented with "real" gear beyond a lot of flipping; MAYBE some very minor modifications. I doubt most, however, would have gone beyond having an amp tech check the bias on their tube amps every few years, swapping out overdrive pedals until they find the "right" one, and MAYBE some speaker swapping.

I only went there because @Sascha Franck did. I don’t think you need to look to pros to see this, my original post he replied to was more about regular guys.

If you think regular guys aren’t flipping and modding amps and swapping speakers looking for something, you must not have spent much time on TGP amp forum in the last 20 years.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

you must not have spent much time on TGP amp forum in the last 20 years.

I, and I’m willing to bet most digital modeler users have not spent much time on the TGP amp forum in the last 20 years.

 

[FuzzyAce]

Its also easy to get overwhelmed. So much information out there. In a way in the 90s it must have been easier on some levels. Get an amp, get an guitar, get playing. In 2024 its more like .. do research >> get stuck in a ton of research >> get an modeler >> get stuck testing out 72 amps

Okay, that's a bit too cynical but still. We just get too much shooting at us. Avoid youtube to save wallet.

There's something to be said about having a minimalist setup. Often times those limits force us to create rather than get distracted with tweaking. Back in the mid to late 90's all I used live was a clean amp and 2-3 pedals max, and was quite happy.

 

[Sascha Franck]

If you think regular guys aren’t flipping and modding amps and swapping speakers looking for something, you must not have spent much time on TGP amp forum in the last 20 years.

These are niche forums full of folks not actually playing much but tone hunting and tone discussing instead. Pretty much all the players I know in real life (and that's quite a decent amount) do of course have their stuff together and checked out some more stuff (myself included). But none of them ever went on such a massive tone hunting frenzy as your usual TGPer (myself included).
Might as well be a different local/country/continent thing over here. Been reading TOP and what not for long enough to know that swapping musical gear is on a whole different level over there in North America.

Anyhow, my general perception still would be that most people playing a lot are likelier to settle with a certain set of tools and call it a day. For very understandable reasons, too, because especially when playing live, you want a set of reliable, familiar, easy to use tools to deal with and rather not care about whatever last minute details. Simply because nobody gives a damn anyway, whereas people do give a damn about you having you're s*** together and actually knowing it. "Can we do something about this ground issue?" (either coming from me or the sound/light guys) is a much more often rising issue than "Uh, my Marshall patch doesn't sound like Jimi!"

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

These are niche forums full of folks not actually playing much but tone hunting and tone discussing instead. Pretty much all the players I know in real life (and that's quite a decent amount) do of course have their stuff together and checked out some more stuff (myself included). But none of them ever went on such a massive tone hunting frenzy as your usual TGPer (myself included).
Might as well be a different local/country/continent thing over here. Been reading TOP and what not for long enough to know that swapping musical gear is on a whole different level over there in North America.

Anyhow, my general perception still would be that most people playing a lot are likelier to settle with a certain set of tools and call it a day. For very understandable reasons, too, because especially when playing live, you want a set of reliable, familiar, easy to use tools to deal with and rather not care about whatever last minute details. Simply because nobody gives a damn anyway, whereas people do give a damn about you having you're s*** together and actually knowing it. "Can we do something about this ground issue?" (either coming from me or the sound/light guys) is a much more often raised issue than "Uh, my Marshall patch doesn't sound like Jimi!"

With just beginners eyes it seems that there actually two different hobbies. One is playing guitar. The other is chasing tones. And one can't go with the other.. but some people just fall way more in the latter spectrum. And thats what you see most on-line.

 

[Sascha Franck]

With just beginners eyes it seems that there actually two different hobbies. One is playing guitar. The other is chasing tones. And one can't go with the other.. but some people just fall way more in the latter spectrum. And thats what you see most on-line.

Sure. Chasing tones is easier and a pretty good excuse for not playing more as well. "I feel uninspired jamming through that Boss Cube!"

 

[MadMaxG79]

The myriad of options and potential settings to be changed is probably why I'm not bonding with the Helix Floor I bought a little over a month ago. It's not that I think that a large number of options is necessarily a bad thing - it lets you find the option you prefer and go with that. It's just that I'm prone to a little bit of both option-paralysis and rabbit-hole-diving. Two things that does not make me play guitar more, on the contrary.

I'm a 45 year old hobby guitarist, been playing since I was about 12. I have spent very little of that time playing actual guitar amps. Which means I really have no idea what a JTM45, JCM800, AC30 or Deluxe Reverb SHOULD sound like. I just know what I like and what sort of sound to expect coming from one of the mentioned models. I also only own a single 100W tube amp that does the job but is nothing special. Which in turn means that I really have no interest in cloning/profiling/capturing anything. But I'm intrigued by the idea of being able to expand my modeler with new sounds that it didn't have when I started - provided these are useful to me.

I have downloaded a lot of both paid and free presets/sounds for a lot of different units over the years. I mostly use it as a means to learn more about my unit from studying what other people have done for sounds that appeal to me. And to have sounds that are more immediately useful to me than the factory provided ones. Why not just sit down and build my own from scratch? Because I don't necessarily enjoy the process. And because I have a full time job, two kids and other hobbies. Most of my time spent playing guitar is spent playing with my bandmates or practicing songs I'd like to play with my bandmates. And since we're mostly a covers band, if someone has made sounds I need for a specific song ready for me, and it's either cheap or free, I'm gonna try those sounds out before I go about making my own. Or it's at least a place to start so that I don't have to do the work from scratch.

The same can be said for IRs. Which is why I own a lot of York Audio IR packs. Because it gives me a sound I like, quickly. I have probably spent 3-4 times as much on his IRs than I needed to, or considering how many of them I actually use, but I also don't mind supporting a product I really like which has made my life with guitar modelers much easier.

For me personally, it's almost always about convenience and ease of use before it's about accuracy or authenticity. I have expectations to quality of sound, but the aforementioned things have proven to be more important to me - especially as I get older and value my time even more so than I did when I was a younger guitar player.

 

[EOengineer]

Option paralysis is a real thing for humans. I mean, If you have a dog and throw 2 treats in opposite directions you will see its also an issue for them, but that's probably a different thread. I don't fault modelers for their flexibility. I fault humans for being deeply flawed and realize that any qualms I have with all the options provided really say more about my own limitations than those the gear.

At this point in my life, it comes down to inspiration. That's what grabbed me when listening to my dad's 8 tracks as a kid, its what grabbed me when I picked up a guitar and formed my first chord, and its what keeps me here today as I plug away happily on nights and weekends trying to create inspiration and then ride those waves towards hopefully creating something I'm happy with here and there.

I've been DEEP down the modeling hole for the last 20 years and, like many here, have waded through every iteration of hardware, every generation of modeler, every "game changing" plugin, and at the end of the day....I'm finding myself hesitant to continue pumping money into soon-to-be obsolete technology when the tube amps and pedals I've collected sound great, have always sounded great, and will continue to sound great regardless of whether a new version of said amp or effect gets released next year.

I do love the flexibility/utility of modelers but at this point they function as little more than a stand-in for real physical gear that I own. For me, music is largely about capturing interaction, what's happening in a specific moment. I'd adapting to try to lean into that, and I don't think modeled interactions are cutting it anymore.

 

[laxu]

Actually, I don't quite agree. The tap dancing aspect, sure. But then with a modeller you've got all sorts of complicating factors that actually make it a lot more difficult to be spontaneous with. Limitation on the number of scenes/snapshots doesn't help, but also setting up expression pedals, switching block presets/channels whatever you wanna call it, it all adds an extra layer of abstraction.

I can see that too. I find most of the time I figure out my "sets of sounds" and then set up switching using e.g scenes to support that, and then spend time tweaking the effects that comprise of those sounds.

But if you'd rather do "hey I want to throw in this effect on a whim" type experimentation then it can be more complicated.

 

[Stone]

For Some i can see that Having all these option can be a form of Paralysis, sure but if one loves playing guitar but is also fascinated by the studio production such as myself, what this parameter does and what does that one do, and how does one get this tone or that tone, how do i create a chain? then a Modeler is a really good option and a good learning tool but if thats not your bag then you dont need to dive into all that, plenty of presets that sound really good and dont require much tweaking and get you what you want

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

With just beginners eyes it seems that there actually two different hobbies. One is playing guitar. The other is chasing tones. And one can't go with the other.. but some people just fall way more in the latter spectrum. And thats what you see most on-line.

Oddly enough, people tend to hang out on gear forums to talk about gear. Jazz guitar online has some talk about gear, but a lot more about actual jazz guitar playing.

 

[Sascha Franck]

For me personally, it's almost always about convenience and ease of use before it's about accuracy or authenticity.

Absolutely the same here. Which is why I went through great lengths slapping together my actual main board. And which is also why I will step back from using plugins at home but rather stick with an almost 100% WYSIWYG setup (to be built once I'm done with some other appartment work, certainly happening this year). Playing time is worth more than anything else.

 

[Rock Chalk]

I think it's a great thing to have options...you don't have to use them all, and some people can't do it.....that's ok too.

Here's the thing...if you like the sound of a speaker with a mic in front of it, the modeling world is your oyster. Play on.....

 

[dk_ace]

Anyhow, my general perception still would be that most people playing a lot are likelier to settle with a certain set of tools and call it a day. For very understandable reasons, too, because especially when playing live, you want a set of reliable, familiar, easy to use tools to deal with and rather not care about whatever last minute details. Simply because nobody gives a damn anyway, whereas people do give a damn about you having you're s*** together and actually knowing it. "Can we do something about this ground issue?" (either coming from me or the sound/light guys) is a much more often rising issue than "Uh, my Marshall patch doesn't sound like Jimi!"

Here, you have EXACTLY described why I’m using an FM9.

If you want to chase elusive tonal things, you can do it in the analog or digital realm and spend virtually unlimited amounts of time trying to find something. You may or may not ever really get there.

D

 

[EOengineer]

Actually, I don't quite agree. The tap dancing aspect, sure. But then with a modeller you've got all sorts of complicating factors that actually make it a lot more difficult to be spontaneous with. Limitation on the number of scenes/snapshots doesn't help, but also setting up expression pedals, switching block presets/channels whatever you wanna call it, it all adds an extra layer of abstraction.

One of the things I most loved about Helix when picking it up years ago was the level of orchestration I could achieve in an effect-heavy project. I ditched my pedalboard and had my amp channel switching integrated, used snapshots and per-song presets so tap dancing was a thing of the past. One tap to rule them all.

Then I’m in a weird sounding venue and my drives sound muddy, delays are getting washed out, and I’m scrambling in menus at soundcheck trying to tweak 15 presets that BTW are now going to sound wrong in the venues I usually play. This becomes even worse when ditching the physical amp and running direct to FOH.

I still battle with this balance of convenience vs satisfaction. It’s SO EASY to load in with only a guitar and backpack, it’s just frequently not very inspiring to actually PLAY that way.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Here, you have EXACTLY described why I’m using an FM9.

Hm...

easy to use tools

 

[paisleywookiee]

Sure, but if you’re exploring the actual settings of that rig you might actually land on something different, if you’re just buying album tones or artist captures you’ve got no chance.

While that might be true, I don't think it's really the case. A lot of people set the EQ at 666, and away they go. It's boring.

 

[JasonE]

This thread really took off... Here is how it works for me.

I have plenty of amps and pedals. I have typically used these for gigs. They work well for me. I can get my stuff setup and ready to roll in minutes. If I need to tweak something it is an easy thing to reach down and turn a knob on a pedal or turn a knob on the amp and I am on my way.

I tried to use my Axe FX Ultra for gigging years ago. It was nothing but a struggle. The volume differences in the patches was a real pain. If I needed to tweak a delay or reverb or even the gain on a patch it was a huge pain. I even took my laptop with me and had it plugged in and running so I could use that to tweak things and it was still a huge PITA. I wasn't running in ears at that time so I couldn't move away from my monitor or I couldn't hear a thing I was playing. It was an all around fail that I put a ton of time into trying to make work.

Today, I have a Kemper Stage and an FM9 (Still have the Ultra too). In my home studio I have no issues using these devices. I have the time to make changes where I want to. I bought both of them with the intent to try them as live rigs again. I find the Kemper easier to make on the fly tweaks on. The layout of it and the fact that I can press and hold the button for the effect I want to tweak and it puts that up on the screen with the knobs right there makes it easy. There is more menu diving on the FM9. I can set some things to pop up easy but I have to of set those specific things up ahead of time and hope I picked the right things.

For me it isn't that I don't want all of the options. It is more about using the gear that makes my life easiest and delivers the tones I need for that scenario. I would still take an amp and pedalboard if I started gigging again today. I would still try to use the Kemper and FM9 but bring the amp and pedals as a fallback if I had issues until I could get the issues worked out. I like the idea of setting the Kemper or FM9 down and plugging some cables in and being done with my setup. It is a lot less stuff to carry around. I just haven't been able to get things where I need them to make it all work smoothly. Again, in the home studio, those are typically my go to devices because I can get good tones without having to crank an amp in the room with me.

I see some discussion about modifying amps and pedals being something us regular guys do. I haven't modified any of my amps. I bought amps I like the sound of and have no reason to mod them. I have done some pedal modifications for other people but haven't modified any of the ones I have. I have built a few but not modified the pedals I have.

 

[Orvillain]

I still battle with this balance of convenience vs satisfaction. It’s SO EASY to load in with only a guitar and backpack, it’s just frequently not very inspiring to actually PLAY that way.

Yah agreed bigly.

You know what I actually think has a lot of potential - the TC Plethora. Because of its WYSIWYG nature, the fact that you don't need to fuck around saving presets or naming anything, and you get a very bog standard set of controls.... but it sounds pretty decent.

Modifying your 'board' on that thing is like.. switch to edit mode.. select the effect you want to edit... turn the 3 control knobs... switch to another effect... do the same... switch to play mode.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Oddly enough, people tend to hang out on gear forums to talk about gear. Jazz guitar online has some talk about gear, but a lot more about actual jazz guitar playing.

It's not weird, of course. But there is also a playing and technique sub forum. Less time is spend there.