The Digital Doubt

[Stone]

The Fractal and other Modelers have a near infinite amount of possibilities to create tones, chains and what not, again does not mean one has to explore and use all of them, the nice thing is that if you can dream it it up you can do it, I will probably never use over 75% of what's available in the Fractal, but its nice to know I can if its required, and also for me it does not mean because im only using maybe 25% of the unit its wasted money or limited value

 

[jellodog]

Yep. It’s the nature of the beast and maybe the nature of guitar world from what I am reading.

Is it inevitable? Otherwise I will go on my spending spree tomorrow so I can go through it

You have do go through your own research and experimentation and work out what's right for you.

The important thing is to at least have some self-awareness and critical faculties, such that you can assess the situation after a few purchases and hopefully not keep repeating the same thing over and over again; which I've done somewhat haha.

 

[jellodog]

But as others have said here, modelling is now at that stage that you're not missing as much as you once were in the digital realm.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I’m perfectly well aware of this but it’s still completely pointless. And knowing what actual gear you like doesn’t mean the digital equivalent is the same. There are plenty of models that I like where I have experience of the real amp and don’t like it because the player experience of digital is different. ""FRFR"" is also not representative of the interaction with a real cab.

I've curated about 22 of the 2,000 IRs that are useful for me. I imagine most folks will find the same number or less. That doesn't mean the other 1980 are pointless - I'm sure the 22 I wind up with are a lot different than than the 22 that a metal head would land on.

Of course one shouldn't just say "Oh, I like SM57 IRL, so those are the only IRs I should listen to". My ~2 hr session also included a bit of "lemme see what these mics sound like in Fractal land" to land on the mics that I would bother auditioning as I curated the ones I liked. None of this takes much time

Of course the experience of playing through monitors vs a cab is different. It is the same when one is using real cabs and microphones. In fact I would say that the most time wasted in all of digital modeling land is folks searching for the IR or "FRFR" that will give them the amp in the room sound/feel. There is a very very simple solution to this conundrum...

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

I've curated about 22 of the 2,000 IRs that are useful for me. I imagine most folks will find the same number or less. That doesn't mean the other 1980 are pointless - I'm sure the 22 I wind up with are a lot different than than the 22 that a metal head would land on.

Of course one shouldn't just say "Oh, I like SM57 IRL, so those are the only IRs I should listen to". My ~2 hr session also included a bit of "lemme see what these mics sound like in Fractal land" to land on the mics that I would bother auditioning as I curated the ones I liked. None of this takes much time

Of course the experience of playing through monitors vs a cab is different. It is the same when one is using real cabs and microphones. In fact I would say that the most time wasted in all of digital modeling land is folks searching for the IR or ""FRFR"" that will give them the amp in the room sound/feel. There is a very very simple solution to this conundrum...

 

[Orvillain]

With the flipside that if you want to switch all that together, save things...it gets complicated compared to a modeler.

Actually, I don't quite agree. The tap dancing aspect, sure. But then with a modeller you've got all sorts of complicating factors that actually make it a lot more difficult to be spontaneous with. Limitation on the number of scenes/snapshots doesn't help, but also setting up expression pedals, switching block presets/channels whatever you wanna call it, it all adds an extra layer of abstraction.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I wanna sorta ride the coat tails of this thread, coz right now I'm thinking about selling my Axe FX III.

Here's the thing:

- At home, I'm concerned with speed. Which is especially important when I have the rest of the band(s) around for a songwriting session. Genuinely, the last 4 or 5 songs we've written across these two bands has been plugged into my RME interface, and the guitars each get a pair of tracks with NDSP's Soldano plugin on them, one for cleans, and one for dirt. Bassist gets the Darkglass plugin, and maybe Helix Native for a chorus or delay effect.

- In the rehearsal studio (and by extension in a live scenario too) I'm concerned with ease of use. Because it is just too time intensive a scenario, and you need to be able to get up and running quickly, and make no mistakes doing it. So.....

I've taken my Axe FX3, Mark V, and the FC-12 controller. I've added the EM midi switcher unit so I can switch channels on the amp from the Axe3. I've prepared a single preset called 'Summerisle 4CM' .... and of course I've got all the necessary cables for 4-cable-method to use that with the amp.

We play one song. Cool. We play the next. Oh, the delay mix and feedback need lowering. Okay. Do that. The next song... oh, I need to switch the channels on the reverb block... okay... do that.

And because my brain is just not capable of planning this all out and approaching it in a logical and methodical way, I end up sorta spinning my wheels and wasting time. It isn't the Axe FX's fault... it is entirely a me thing. But when I have a DD3, DD8, RV5, and MXR Reverb... right there on the floor in front of me... alongside the actual Mark V footswitch unit... there's just no fucking about, nothing goes wrong, and I get speed, I get reliability, and I get ease of use.


So circling back around the studio.... I explained it this way to @MirrorProfiles earlier on... but the 20% of the time that I do use the Axe3, I use 15% of its capabilities.

And I've paid £2700ish for that???? It doesn't make any kind of sense.

If I was completely ALL IN balls deep on the Axe3, then it would make sense. But I'm not, and I never will be.



sooooooo... options... I like them, get very enthusastic about having them, but the more I have, the less I achieve it seems to me.

In terms of achieving the tone I want across the whole rig... if I can do it in 4 steps, instead of 20 ... why choose the 20??



So at the moment, I'm looking at my gear and I'm thinking... I've got a lot of money wrapped up in this stuff, and I basically use the same style of rig that I was using back in 2007 when I properly got started with being in bands.

Yeah, if effects are part of your writing process and you write with other people, you're a pretty shitty bandmate if you try to pull that off with a MFX unit.

 

[dk_ace]

Can't confirm for myself. At least not exactly. I use to use the things I have extensively. Likely has its origins in me being sort of poor-ish for the larger part of my playing life (in fact, it's not all that much about being poor but very often I'd rather spend my money on something more fun). Also, once you went through all of that (which I also did extensively, in those times when I was rather rich-ish, at least given my standards), you will notice it's not getting you closer to whatever it might be.

Let's face it, there's a truckload of killer players who stick to pretty much simple stuff all throughout their careers. Sure, they might've swapped things quite a bit in their formative years, too, but for many of them, it did come to an end sort of soon.
Do you read much about, say, Robben Ford swapping amps all the time? Not even the most brutal collector of all times, namely Joe Bonamassa, is changing his live setup all that much. Even some of the guys delivering a whole lot of flexibility (let's say John Petrucci), while obviously being in a position to use pretty much anything, stick to a given setup for a longer period of time.
I'm sure we could look up pretty much any wellknown player and observe exactly the same for the most part.

You’ve made my point for me without even meaning to.

Joe B changed his live rig constantly for years. He’s changed it in big ways in recent years too. I don’t think it has gone a full 12 months without significant changes.

EJ is obsessively tinkering nonstop too. He’s bought and sold more gear than you or I could dream of and is still chasing something. He’s also modding things continuously in addition to buying and selling.

Since you’re mentioning blues rock guys, go back further to SRV and Hendrix and you’ll see the same story. Constantly switching and modding stuff looking for something that isn’t there in whatever they have.

Every one of these guys sounded amazing most of the time yet they weren’t 100% happy.

With digital gear, I can mod it myself in a few seconds. I can swap out amps and speakers in seconds. A process that takes months and thousands of dollars in real gear can be gone through in an afternoon with an axe fx. You might not be any happier at the end of that than you were at the beginning, same as with the real gear.

This isn’t a digital phenomenon, been going on for decades and still going on with analog gear too.

D

 

[Sascha Franck]

In fact I would say that the most time wasted in all of digital modeling land is folks searching for the IR or """FRFR""" that will give them the amp in the room sound/feel.

Pretty much my observation, too.
Fortunately, I never bothered myself, because one of the things I always loved about modeling was how it allowed me to get rid of any amp-in-the-room issues.

 

[PorcinePicker]

The Fractal and other Modelers have a near infinite amount of possibilities to create tones, chains and what not, again does not mean one has to explore and use all of them, the nice thing is that if you can dream it it up you can do it, I will probably never use over 75% of what's available in the Fractal, but its nice to know I can if its required, and also for me it does not mean because im only using maybe 25% of the unit its wasted money or limited value

Yep.

I’ve never understood all of the option paralysis fuss. 90% of my playing time is spent on one preset with a couple of amps through the same cab . I’m just happy that it sounds great and that everything gets switched without a tap dance. I guess I lack that particular variety of OCD.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

You’ve made my point for me without even meaning to.

Joe B changed his live rig constantly for years. He’s changed it in big ways in recent years too. I don’t think it has gone a full 12 months without significant changes.

EJ is obsessively tinkering nonstop too. He’s bought and sold more gear than you or I could dream of and is still chasing something. He’s also modding things continuously in addition to buying and selling.

Since you’re mentioning blues rock guys, go back further to SRV and Hendrix and you’ll see the same story. Constantly switching and modding stuff looking for something that isn’t there in whatever they have.

Every one of these guys sounded amazing most of the time yet they weren’t 100% happy.

With digital gear, I can mod it myself in a few seconds. I can swap out amps and speakers in seconds. A process that takes months and thousands of dollars in real gear can be gone through in an afternoon with an axe fx. You might not be any happier at the end of that than you were at the beginning, same as with the real gear.

This isn’t a digital phenomenon, been going on for decades and still going on with analog gear too.

D

We're not talking about SRV/EJ/JB. My guess is the average digital modeler user, even the heavy tweaker, never would have experimented with "real" gear beyond a lot of flipping; MAYBE some very minor modifications. I doubt most, however, would have gone beyond having an amp tech check the bias on their tube amps every few years, swapping out overdrive pedals until they find the "right" one, and MAYBE some speaker swapping.

 

[Orvillain]

Yeah, if effects are part of your writing process and you write with other people, you're a pretty shitty bandmate if you try to pull that off with a MFX unit.

Obviously there are shades of grey with this.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Obviously there are shades of grey with this.

No. There is not. You were shitty that day at band camp.

 

[Eagle]

You’ve made my point for me without even meaning to.

Joe B changed his live rig constantly for years. He’s changed it in big ways in recent years too. I don’t think it has gone a full 12 months without significant changes.

EJ is obsessively tinkering nonstop too. He’s bought and sold more gear than you or I could dream of and is still chasing something. He’s also modding things continuously in addition to buying and selling.

Since you’re mentioning blues rock guys, go back further to SRV and Hendrix and you’ll see the same story. Constantly switching and modding stuff looking for something that isn’t there in whatever they have.

Every one of these guys sounded amazing most of the time yet they weren’t 100% happy.

With digital gear, I can mod it myself in a few seconds. I can swap out amps and speakers in seconds. A process that takes months and thousands of dollars in real gear can be gone through in an afternoon with an axe fx. You might not be any happier at the end of that than you were at the beginning, same as with the real gear.

This isn’t a digital phenomenon, been going on for decades and still going on with analog gear too.

D

This is true but with digital you can spend an inordinate amount of time looking for something that isn’t there. Amp in the room ( if you like it) isn’t there . Sat in the control room wearing headphones is the best you are going to get.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Sat in the control room wearing headphones is the best you are going to get.

No. The best is being on stage with my idealized cab.

 

[FuzzyAce]

Setting internal goals is very important. Asking yourself basic questions can make those goals more clear and achievable. What is my purpose for playing guitar? Do I want to learn new material? Do I want to write new material? Do I want to explore new tones and experiment? Do I want to simplify my gear because I think it'll force me to focus on playing more? Do I want to start a band? Etc, etc.
Everybody has to ask themselves these kinds of questions, yet everybody's needs/wants are different. Be honest with yourself and not falling into the trap of "I have to have what this guy has to be where I need to be".

 

[ian_dissonance]

Yet a lot of metal albums sound the same because of “5150 through a Mesa OS with a boost”. This isn’t a modeler/capture problem, necessarily.

Sure, but if you’re exploring the actual settings of that rig you might actually land on something different, if you’re just buying album tones or artist captures you’ve got no chance.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

This is true but with digital you can spend an inordinate amount of time looking for something that isn’t there. Amp in the room ( if you like it) isn’t there . Sat in the control room wearing headphones is the best you are going to get.

Amp in the room, oddly, is also not in the guitar amp. Indeed, unless its got some digital modeling built in, it can't even do "Sat in the control room wearing headphones".

 

[Stone]

Setting internal goals is very important. Asking yourself basic questions can make those goals more clear and achievable. What is my purpose for playing guitar? Do I want to learn new material? Do I want to write new material? Do I want to explore new tones and experiment? Do I want to simplify my gear because I think it'll force me to focus on playing more? Do I want to start a band? Etc, etc.
Everybody has to ask themselves these kinds of questions, yet everybody's needs/wants are different. Be honest without yourself and not falling into the trap of "I have to have what this guy has to be where I need to be".

This 100%, everyone has different needs or goals and based on your goals this should determine what gear is best for what you want to achieve
Amen

 

[FuzzyAce]

This 100%, everyone has different needs or goals and based on your goals this should determine what gear is best for what you want to achieve
Amen

I also meant to add, "use an excel chart and reference it daily".

Seriously though, it should be pretty simple if we're honest with ourselves. I know part of the challenge can be choosing what gear works best for yourself, especially with the wide selection nowadays. Sometimes we get lucky early on, sometimes it takes a lot of trial and error to hone in what we really need. Gear is a lot of fun though, but admittedly it pains me to have gear that sits around not getting used too.