The Digital Doubt

[Enchilada Jones]

I just downloaded the LiveReadySound Friedman JEL 800 pack for Kemper.
Lots of profiles made with lots of IR’s.
Love it. So much good stuff to explore.
I imagine a Fractal device could create the modeling equivalent of it all but if I have to manually dial all that content up and then save presets of it when do I play?!?

I get inspired by sounds and that leads to being creative. It is being creative that I’m after.
If someone enjoys mastering a modeler and creating the inspiring sounds then good for them. I finally realized tweaking is the part I don’t really enjoy.

 

[FuzzyAce]

I wanna sorta ride the coat tails of this thread, coz right now I'm thinking about selling my Axe FX III.

Here's the thing:

- At home, I'm concerned with speed. Which is especially important when I have the rest of the band(s) around for a songwriting session. Genuinely, the last 4 or 5 songs we've written across these two bands has been plugged into my RME interface, and the guitars each get a pair of tracks with NDSP's Soldano plugin on them, one for cleans, and one for dirt. Bassist gets the Darkglass plugin, and maybe Helix Native for a chorus or delay effect.

- In the rehearsal studio (and by extension in a live scenario too) I'm concerned with ease of use. Because it is just too time intensive a scenario, and you need to be able to get up and running quickly, and make no mistakes doing it. So.....

I've taken my Axe FX3, Mark V, and the FC-12 controller. I've added the EM midi switcher unit so I can switch channels on the amp from the Axe3. I've prepared a single preset called 'Summerisle 4CM' .... and of course I've got all the necessary cables for 4-cable-method to use that with the amp.

We play one song. Cool. We play the next. Oh, the delay mix and feedback need lowering. Okay. Do that. The next song... oh, I need to switch the channels on the reverb block... okay... do that.

And because my brain is just not capable of planning this all out and approaching it in a logical and methodical way, I end up sorta spinning my wheels and wasting time. It isn't the Axe FX's fault... it is entirely a me thing. But when I have a DD3, DD8, RV5, and MXR Reverb... right there on the floor in front of me... alongside the actual Mark V footswitch unit... there's just no fucking about, nothing goes wrong, and I get speed, I get reliability, and I get ease of use.


So circling back around the studio.... I explained it this way to @MirrorProfiles earlier on... but the 20% of the time that I do use the Axe3, I use 15% of its capabilities.

And I've paid £2700ish for that???? It doesn't make any kind of sense.

If I was completely ALL IN balls deep on the Axe3, then it would make sense. But I'm not, and I never will be.



sooooooo... options... I like them, get very enthusastic about having them, but the more I have, the less I achieve it seems to me.

In terms of achieving the tone I want across the whole rig... if I can do it in 4 steps, instead of 20 ... why choose the 20??



So at the moment, I'm looking at my gear and I'm thinking... I've got a lot of money wrapped up in this stuff, and I basically use the same style of rig that I was using back in 2007 when I properly got started with being in bands.

I get what you're laying down. What you said about the AxeIII is basically why I haven't bought one yet -- because I know I'll never use even a bit of its full potential, and it's not exactly a cheap piece of gear. The VP4 has tamed any Fractal GAS for me currently.

As much as I like cool tech, I still want something that's relatively simple to use and that sounds great. I love recording with Helix Native because it's so quick a simple to pull up, yet it can do a lot of things if needed. I enjoy the HX stomp and other modeling gear, but knowing myself, if I were to strike up a band again and hit the stage I'd most certainly use a straight forward tube amp and pedal board -- and probably add a FR for a wet signal only. It just makes it easier to dial in tones within that scenario, everything is more tactile.

As far as dialing in tones -- yeah, I really only trust myself to do that properly. Although, it can be cool to see what others are doing and maybe it's something you hadn't thought of that spurs an idea. I find with modeling it's worth the effort to dive in and tweak cabs and other perimeters because most stock presets suck. And usually it's the simple presets you make yourself that sound the best. But I get the POV where some just don't want to fool with all that, because there are times I don't want to deal with it either. I just want to plug in to an amp, a few pedals and go.

 

[dk_ace]

I don’t think it has anything to do with modelers. I think the same stuff happens with pedals and amps. Mod this, swap that, what if I did this instead, etc. Guitarists that are gear heads constantly wring their hands over idiosyncratic tone stuff and second guess themselves.

D

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I just downloaded the LiveReadySound Friedman JEL 800 pack for Kemper.
Lots of profiles made with lots of IR’s.
Love it. So much good stuff to explore.
I imagine a Fractal device could create the modeling equivalent of it all but if I have to manually dial all that content up and then save presets of it when do I play?!?

I get inspired by sounds and that leads to being creative. It is being creative that I’m after.
If someone enjoys mastering a modeler and creating the inspiring sounds then good for them. I finally realized tweaking is the part I don’t really enjoy.

I'm curious how this works out for you in the long run though -- do you now have to buy a new profile pack as soon as this one gets "old" in order to get inspired? Do you need a new sound to spark creativity?

I get the bit about sound being inspiring, and that certain types of sounds can send our creativity in a particular direction -- picking up my tele does often lead to me creating something different than I would if I picked up my 335 and vice versa. And of course occasionally doing an amp model tone tasting in the AxeFx can inspire my playing into a different direction than my main preset would have taken me.

But on a Joe average day what I'm looking for is a base preset that I plug my guitar into that I find to be consistently inspiring every time I plug in to play. I have two of those for my tele (which could easily be combined into one with channels, but I'm lazy and don't need to do that) and I've got one that I use with my 335 (which is just a slightly tweaked version of one of my tele presets). These are the first three presets on my unit and amount to my version of "just plug into a couple of pedals and amp and go!" set up.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Metal guitar groups are the best for this.
“Man, all these albums sound the same.”
*buys every “producer” STL/Kemper/QC profile pack because dialing in a 5150 through a Mesa OS with a boost in front is a lot of work.

Yet a lot of metal albums sound the same because of “5150 through a Mesa OS with a boost”. This isn’t a modeler/capture problem, necessarily.

 

[Whizzinby]

The further we get away from a handful of pedals into an amp and cab, the more dorky the experience of playing becomes.

People can happily use a modeler replicating that tried and true approach, but the overlay of studio production techniques and some OCD desire to tweak parameters you’d never heard of until you saw a button for it under an advanced tab, complicates it for some.

The resulting clusterfuck “secrets of the pros” inspired preset with a hi cut, low cut, multi band, side chained, parallel processed, flux capacitated signal chain, probably wasn’t needed to play Sweet Home Alabama.

You know what works in analog world? An SD1 into a Marshall into a V30 412. You know what works on a modeler? A drive block (SD1) into an amp block (Marshall) into a V30 412. Don’t overthink it.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Going back to my cover band days, the appeal of the ADA MP-1 for me was being able to make as many presets as I felt the various songs deserved, and then have ready access to them.

But I found I only ended up using a handful, because once I got a great tone, my focus shifted to the music. Always the music. If the band was tight, the songs good, and we had great vocals with harmonies..., as long as I was in the mix where I needed to be, I was pretty much done. Plus, between my PRS, with its 5-way rotary switch and the sweet switch, and my LP, and a few pedals, I had a deep range of tones on tap.

Fast-forward to having an Axe III, not in a band any more, but I still do the same thing. I know what I want my tone(s) to sound like, I have them fully in-hand by now, so for me, the endless tweaking, or feeling like I "should be" using all its capabilities, is just non existent.


I say, if you've been playing for any length of time, you know what you like. And if you buy something that's completely new to you, if you can't get it to give you what you want via its basic controls and/or factory presets, move it on.

But there's also the player who gets a new toy, and it opens up a huge range of sounds they've never had access to, and they get deep into exploring. But it still shouldn't take getting all up 'in the weeds' to get you into great sounds.


But that's just me, and we're all different, in our needs and wants, but also in which part of the 'playing guitar' experience we're our own worst enemy, when it comes to just getting down to doing the thing we picked up the guitar to do, in the first place. Which also changes along the way.

"Where it'll get mixed in and become just a coin.

Which it is."

 

[TSJMajesty]

And I had another thought...

Let's not forget, there's entire marketing departments that understand human nature very well, and they know exactly what they're doing, catering to the, "I don't have that one. I have Megator. That's Megatee!" crowd.

"SO GET OUT YOUR MASTERCARD!"

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

There’s times when I might not trust my own ears, but I certainly trust them a hell of a lot more than anyone elses when it comes to dialling in a tone. I cannot for the life of me understand why I’d want to use anyone elses preset, and tbh, using IR’s is a bit like that unless you have the means to dial them in. It’s just pot lock and I don’t find that inspiring. It’s like wearing someone else’s underpants without even knowing who they are or how many pints of guinness they’ve drunk first.

I don’t think it’s just with guitar tones, I think so many of us fall into traps of doing what we think we’re supposed to rather than being brave with a decision of “I think this sounds cool, fuck everyone else”.

Don’t see it as wearing someone else his underpants. If I had bought an amp from store I would accepted all the stuff inside it. It would probably not even consider changing cabs.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Its very possible that many younger guitarists have never dabbled in music production, have never spent countless hours trying to make old gear sound good, and don't know how to use an EQ.

They want immediate gratification. They want someone to tell them they are doing it right.

They want legos, not woodworking.

Myself, I think I dove into music and recording tech too early, and without enough budget. Living in apartments in the 90s, no where to open up an amp, having little money for mics or mic pres. Recording rigs, sequencers, even midi libraries were very expensive. So there were a lot of years of failure even to produce some shitty four track demos.

You would think I would eat up a new Fractal or QC, but I recently bought a 5150 and just want to work on my chops.

It has nothing to do with instant gratification. It has to do with wanting to play guitar. I am not a recording artist. I am a guitar player as a hobby and I don’t want to precious time I have dialing in cabs and become a hobbyist sound engineer.

It’s actually discipline to not tweak and dabble.

 

[holoholo]

Regarding presets. To each his own. But if I ain’t hiring a mofo to turn knobs on a physical amp irl, I sure aint buying digital presets.

but it’s mostly because I’m poor af

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Regarding presets. To each his own. But if I ain’t hiring a mofo to turn knobs on a physical amp irl, I sure aint buying digital presets.

but it’s mostly because I’m poor af

Presets I don’t really understand. There are so many variables like the room, guitar etc. , I would end up tweaking the preset.

The IR for me is the base of what I am building. So the York Deluxe reverb IR for example. Add a deluxe normal or vibrato to it… a EQ at the front and done.

I know the IR is right so whenever something sounds off I know where to tweak. The amp or more likely the EQ.

All those low cut hi cut .. distance .. type of mics … in an angle and what not z… it’s just too much and every time I said to myself “hey let’s try this time” and am pleased with the end result , the York IRs that I have still always sound better. It’s a skill set that I don’t have, don’t need to have (I don’t work in a studio , I ain’t a recording artist) and don’t want to have :)

 

[Eagle]

Give me four or five great sounding irs and I am happy. The 2000 + in axe is a disadvantage because your not going to audition them and you constantly wonder if they’re better ones in you rig that you just haven’t found yet. I think anything over a hundred is a serious distraction.

 

[James Freeman]

Some people get confused with anything beyond an acoustic guitar, some people use everything in their modelers.
Some people try everything in their modelers and fall back to their comfort zone which is usually much simpler.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Some people get confused with anything beyond an acoustic guitar, some people use everything in their modelers.
Some people try everything in their modelers and fall back to their comfort zone which is usually much simpler.

and some people end up tweaking way more than playing and then they wonder why their tone still sucks

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Give me four or five great sounding irs and I am happy. The 2000 + in axe is a disadvantage because your not going to audition them and you constantly wonder if they’re better ones in you rig that you just haven’t found yet. I think anything over a hundred is a serious distraction.

Of course there is no need to audition all of them. You figure out what mics you like and audition one of those for each cab that makes sense for the kinds of amps one might use it for. If it's too dark/brite but otherwise good, you move to a different letter designation. If you like it (or a different letter variation) you tag it. It took me less than 2 hours to go through all 2000 in this manner and now I've curated the collection and can quickly grab what I want/need from the "why does anyone need this many IRs?!?!?" factory set.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Don’t see it as wearing someone else his underpants. If I had bought an amp from store I would accepted all the stuff inside it. It would probably not even consider changing cabs.

A speaker, cabinet, mic and it’s position have such a huge effect on the tone that I don’t really want the most critical aspect of a guitar tone dialled in by someone else who has no idea what I’m trying to achieve.

Give me four or five great sounding irs and I am happy. The 2000 + in axe is a disadvantage because your not going to audition them and you constantly wonder if they’re better ones in you rig that you just haven’t found yet. I think anything over a hundred is a serious distraction.

having 2000 IR’s doesn’t mean 2000 totally different unrelated random files to sift through. It just gives you the means to find what you’re looking for rather than having to settle for something that’s almost there, but not quite.

 

[Eagle]

Of course there is no need to audition all of them. You figure out what mics you like and audition one of those for each cab that makes sense for the kinds of amps one might use it for. If it's too dark/brite but otherwise good, you move to a different letter designation. If you like it (or a different letter variation) you tag it. It took me less than 2 hours to go through all 2000 in this manner and now I've curated the collection and can quickly grab what I want/need from the "why does anyone need this many IRs?!?!?" factory set.

I’m perfectly well aware of this but it’s still completely pointless. And knowing what actual gear you like doesn’t mean the digital equivalent is the same. There are plenty of models that I like where I have experience of the real amp and don’t like it because the player experience of digital is different. "FRFR" is also not representative of the interaction with a real cab.

 

[Eagle]

A speaker, cabinet, mic and it’s position have such a huge effect on the tone that I don’t really want the most critical aspect of a guitar tone dialled in by someone else who has no idea what I’m trying to achieve.


having 2000 IR’s doesn’t mean 2000 totally different unrelated random files to sift through. It just gives you the means to find what you’re looking for rather than having to settle for something that’s almost there, but not quite.

The vast majority are not usable for me.
Modelling in general is settling for something that is almost there but not quite.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

The vast majority are not usable for me.
Modelling in general is settling for something that is almost there but not quite.

For IR’s, I agree there’s a lot of weird stuff out there. That’s more to do with how they’re captured and how they’re intended to be used than the technology itself.