Seems like no more good Pots for amps.........

[nicolasrivera]

I did a post in the Facebook Friedman Amp group, stating my concern regarding the new Plex amplifier in what seems to be and now confirmed little squared board mount pots. David Friedman punched in and confirmed that he was having huge issues with current production potentiometers and he could not find any that could meet Friedman amps quality standards so he implemented those kind of potentiometers in this new amp and most certainly all his line of amplifiers will migrate to this kind of integration.

Not doubting the quality of Friedman I own one of his amps and love it. The new PLEX is backed by a Limited Lifetime warranty and David has always addressed any issues with his amps in a expedita and professional matter regardless what model you have.

Are we entering a period like those of TUBES where it's so hard to find quality ones and the big name pot makers have drop in quality that old new stock ones will sky rocket in price or will all amp makers turn to use this kind of pots that Friedman amp had to use in order to keep quality standards? What do you think.


Here is the answer from David:

"The pots are firmly mounted to the chassis, they are also suported with brackets off the pot.. Also all the full size pots i was using were failing, other choice Cts... those are all over the place in value and have a dead spot the first quarter of the pot.. NO... There is not great choices for production out there.. These are good sealed pots... This was the best choice as i refuse to deal with the other stuff."

 

[Eagle]

So no more good pots means we have to switch straight to pcb mounted pots.
BS.

 

[Eagle]

Those look an awful lot like the ones Marshall use and get criticised for. When everything is board mounted and the hand wiring gets reduced down to these levels the price starts to look a little difficult to justify.

 

[Eagle]

This gut shot of a bog standard plexi reissue is starting to look a lot like a better deal. Note everything is chassis mounted and fly wired . This will take twice as long to build as the Friedman and costs considerably less. Uk made and the classic.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Tbf, the Friedman wouldn't require the entire board to be lifted to change a pot so its a lot better than Marshalls from the Horizontal JCM800's onwards in that regard. So many amps like EVH etc have HUGE PCB's with everything mounted to them and to removing the board alone eats up a good chunk of tech time. Even with the board mounted pots, they look pretty serviceable. And if the quality of pots are better then presumably its less likely they'd need changing anyway.

Tbh the Friedman PCB's look thick and high quality compared to the Marshall and the brands of capacitor and resistors are a bit more fancy.

 

[Eagle]

Tbf, the Friedman wouldn't require the entire board to be lifted to change a pot so its a lot better than Marshalls from the Horizontal JCM800's onwards in that regard. So many amps like EVH etc have HUGE PCB's with everything mounted to them and to removing the board alone eats up a good chunk of tech time. Even with the board mounted pots, they look pretty serviceable. And if the quality of pots are better then presumably its less likely they'd need changing anyway.

Tbh the Friedman PCB's look thick and high quality compared to the Marshall and the brands of capacitor and resistors are a bit more fancy.

I don’t doubt Friedman’s component quality or the pcb but that is taking a lot less time to build.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I don’t doubt Friedman’s component quality or the pcb but that is taking a lot less time to build.

That's a good thing though isn't it? Means the price is lower, and there's less chance of mistakes when building them. Well designed PCB's can get lower noise and interference from more logical lead dress than you can get with fly leads too. There's a reason why Marshall switched to PCB's in 74. There's only a few Marshall's still made like the photo above even, they have that big wave soldering machine which is way faster than any human (1:15 in this)

 

[laxu]

other choice Cts... those are all over the place in value and have a dead spot the first quarter of the pot.

Can confirm this. I measured multiple CTS pots I had at one point and was surprised that the first quarter turn caused zero change in resistance. I then measured same value Alpha and Bourns pots and those were not only more accurate to the printed value but also worked more evenly across their whole travel. Never buying CTS again.

 

[James Freeman]

My 400$ Peavey Valveking MK1 has the same pots, great amp btw.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Means the price is lower,

Does it, though?

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Does it, though?

Yes, it massively speeds up the amount of time to make. And they are more consistent with less chance of human error. The margin on amps really isn’t THAT big with all things considered. They would absolutely cost more if built in USA with turret boards. Same reason why a 1959HW costs more than a 1987x

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Yes, it massively speeds up the amount of time to make. And they are more consistent with less chance of human error.

I didn't quote the "speeds up" the process part of your previous post. That bit is obvious.

 

[Eagle]

Yes, it massively speeds up the amount of time to make. And they are more consistent with less chance of human error. The margin on amps really isn’t THAT big with all things considered. They would absolutely cost more if built in USA with turret boards. Same reason why a 1959HW costs more than a 1987x

It means the price could be lower because of massively reduced labour costs ( time ) but it can also just mean higher profit.

 

[JiveTurkey]

It means the price could be lower because of massively reduced labour costs ( time ) but it can also just mean higher profit.

I'm leaning towards higher profit. Unfortunately for the consumer

 

[MirrorProfiles]

It means the price could be lower because of massively reduced labour costs ( time ) but it can also just mean higher profit.

I really don't think amps sell in high enough quantity for them to do that. Like I genuinely think ANYONE who's building an amp would want to reduce costs and make the amp competitively priced. If someone really wants to price gouge they'd sell IR's or presets or something

 

[la szum]

Seems to me that in low volume businesses profit margin is EVERYTHING. You just don't sell at the volume
levels to justify low margins. Not sustainable. In high volume businesses, though, low margins can be hugely
and widely successful.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Seems to me that in low volume businesses profit margin is EVERYTHING. You just don't sell at the volume
levels to justify low margins. Not sustainable. In high volume businesses, though, low margins can be hugely
and widely successful.

right, but that difference is basically between we can sell a handwired amp for $4XXX or a PCB amp for $3XXX with the same profit margin. And the PCB amp is superior, it will have less issues, lower noise etc. There's a very small percentage of people that are willing to pay more just to have some turretboard porn, for the most part its just adding extra cost for no reason.

Amps are expensive, and I am not disagreeing with that. But if you try pricing something similar up to build yourself (with like for like parts), its really not very cheap, and thats not taking into account labour/advertising/dealer cut and whatever else.

I don't really understand the issue either - if you want a cheap HW amp, you buy ceriatone. If you want something relatively cheap that says Marshall on it, and you don't care how its built you buy that. If you want a cheap Friedman, you get a Runt or a 20W. If you want the bells and whistles you get the BE100. There's basically something for everyone at any price, we're totally spoiled with the options available now.

 

[Eagle]

right, but that difference is basically between we can sell a handwired amp for $4XXX or a PCB amp for $3XXX with the same profit margin. And the PCB amp is superior, it will have less issues, lower noise etc. There's a very small percentage of people that are willing to pay more just to have some turretboard porn, for the most part its just adding extra cost for no reason.

Amps are expensive, and I am not disagreeing with that. But if you try pricing something similar up to build yourself (with like for like parts), its really not very cheap, and thats not taking into account labour/advertising/dealer cut and whatever else.

I don't really understand the issue either - if you want a cheap HW amp, you buy ceriatone. If you want something relatively cheap that says Marshall on it, and you don't care how its built you buy that. If you want a cheap Friedman, you get a Runt or a 20W. If you want the bells and whistles you get the BE100. There's basically something for everyone at any price, we're totally spoiled with the options available now.

Let’s just not pretend board mounted pots and tube sockets and practically everything is “ premium “.

 

[Eagle]

This is what premium looks like;

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Let’s just not pretend board mounted pots and tube sockets and practically everything is “ premium “.

I really don't get the issue. They are board mounted because they are better than anything else available that isn't board mounted. The options are use a lower quality part that people can have a tug at photos online over, or something unnecessarily expensive. Pointless making an issue out of it if they are good quality, reliable and consistent parts (i.e. the exact reasons they are in the amp in the first place). Most amp builders would side with Dave, and especially those who are manufacturing on a larger scale than one off's by hand.

I'm sure if you wanted a PCB-less amp with the pots of your choosing, Dave (or any other builder) would happily build (and charge) you whatever you like. The vast majority of customers are never even going to look inside the amp, let alone know the difference. and given the choice I think they'd prefer something reliable, consistent, affordable etc.