Question for bands using modeling

[pipelineaudio]

.... and this is where the rubber hits the road. The band is MUCH more likely to sound good out front with vDrums because of the lower stage volume. High stage volume is where good front of house sound goes to die, because at the end of the day, vocal microphones aren't smart enough to amplify ONLY the singers voice.... and they are by far the highest gain mics on stage.

One TRILLION percent! The limiting factor of sounding good in a club so often comes down to a race between deaf guitar players pointing their amps at their knees then turning up enough to hear it *while simultaneously rejecting any offer of guitars in the monitors* and drummers who can't read a room and hit their way too loud snare way too hard, while also not being able to hear above 6khz and insisting on buying cymbals that peak at 8k and thus needing to hit the cymbals super hard in order to hear them

 

[burningyen]

At my last gig, I discovered that my bridge pickup was microphonic because the snare drum was coming through my Helix. So there are benefits to having a loud drummer onstage.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

A common example would be fast rolls. This is where I see drummers who refuse e-kits really draw the line...so far

that's no longer a problem, at least not to a degree that would cause an issue live. My drummer plays fast rolls on my e-kit all the time.

from yt (not my drummer lol):

 

[newholland]

LOL. And I can no longer imagine playing without wireless IEM's :). Shoot, these day's I am so spoiled I even feel slighted if I can't get a stereo IEM mix!


A natural kick sounds like crap without reinforcement. Wouldn't dream of playing without micing the kick.

With the exception of Jazz and possibly some blues, I would argue that no one in the audience could hear any of the nuances if they were there in amongst all the noise generated in a bar and the reflections of the PA and the rest of the stage volume all over the room.

.... and this is where the rubber hits the road. The band is MUCH more likely to sound good out front with vDrums because of the lower stage volume. High stage volume is where good front of house sound goes to die, because at the end of the day, vocal microphones aren't smart enough to amplify ONLY the singers voice.... and they are by far the highest gain mics on stage.

its not so much that id disagree with anything you said if the economics of independent music weren't such that folks doing those shows seldom have these things in basements and coop spaces. its definitely a different skillset to cultivate existing in that universe

makes you thankful for shitty monitors when you DO get them, even though all i ever ask for is vocals and kick drum

in all honesty though, most of my banding experiences have been drilled through constant practice and reinforced via visual signals despite REALLY loud stage volume because of a super loud drummer. not always optimal, but totally negotiable. great for two guitar players working off each other? no. wed always get to recording and go 'OH you play THAT? ' (partially kidding.. but only partially). gestalt rock. :lol:

 

[pipelineaudio]

that's no longer a problem, at least not to a degree that would cause an issue live. My drummer plays fast rolls on my e-kit all the time.

from yt (not my drummer lol):

It would cause an issue if the drummer doesn't want to use it. Like I said, if they are playing the same sort of part that was programmed (generally) for a recording, or even tracked using an E-Kit, it should be 100% ok, but if you put many a drummer in front of that set they aren't going to like it, also, in this case, because there isn't any sort of anti machinegun being used on this video, you would probably want to use trigger software that has at least round robin support, and then that likely means at least 6msec of latency.

These are all things I do for years, if the drummer can tolerate it. But many can't and even the ones who generally like e kits do not like the typewriter/machinegun effect. The problem drummer can hear it easily a mile away and will reject it. Dismiss the ABX test all you want but this is one of the reason many drummers will reject it and you hear it in that video

 

[pipelineaudio]

wed always get to recording and go 'OH you play THAT? ' (partially kidding.. but only partially). gestalt rock. :lol:

That so often happens especially when a new band gets to the studio the first time....You've been playing THAT all along? I was playing this!

But man, their next show is WAY tighter and better because of it for sure

 

[GuitarBilly74]

It would cause an issue if the drummer doesn't want to use it. Like I said, if they are playing the same sort of part that was programmed (generally) for a recording, or even tracked using an E-Kit, it should be 100% ok, but if you put many a drummer in front of that set they aren't going to like it, also, in this case, because there isn't any sort of anti machinegun being used on this video, you would probably want to use trigger software that has at least round robin support, and then that likely means at least 6msec of latency.

These are all things I do for years, if the drummer can tolerate it. But many can't and even the ones who generally like e kits do not like the typewriter/machinegun effect. The problem drummer can hear it easily a mile away and will reject it. Dismiss the ABX test all you want but this is one of the reason many drummers will reject it and you hear it in that video

 

[GuitarBilly74]

It would cause an issue if the drummer doesn't want to use it.

yah "I don't want to use it" is an issue for any instrument ever made.

 

[newholland]

That so often happens especially when a new band gets to the studio the first time....You've been playing THAT all along? I was playing this!

But man, their next show is WAY tighter and better because of it for sure

seems like if yer gonna have two guitarists, its kinda pointless to play the same thing. at some point its gonna happen- eventually you trust your other guitarists taste, even if you cant always hear perfectly. i wonder how differently itdve worked if we COULD'VE heard each other better over drums.

 

[pipelineaudio]

yah "I don't want to use it" is an issue for any instrument ever made.

Question for bands using modeling​

Why not switch the drums to e-kits too?

That's why (partially)

 

[GuitarBilly74]

Question for bands using modeling​

Why not switch the drums to e-kits too?

That's why (partially)

Seriously?? It took you 9 pages and about 5000 words to say " it's cuz they don't want to"?

 

[pipelineaudio]

Seriously?? It took you 9 pages and about 5000 words to say " it's cuz they don't want to"?

No, YOU summarized it as "they don't want to". I gave you the reasons why they don't want to

Your question could easily be phrased as "why don't they want to"

 

[GuitarBilly74]

No, YOU summarized it as "they don't want to". I gave you the reasons why they don't want to

Your question could easily be phrased as "why don't they want to"

yeah yeah the ABX results etc... I don't buy it, sorry.

 

[pipelineaudio]

You don't buy that the reason that some drummers don't want to play e-kits is because they don't like the sound coming out the other end?

 

[ucnick]

I'm in 2 bands, both with the same drummer, he is a kick ass drummers and we are longtime bandmates from a previous band. He uses an upper tier Roland e-drums kit and is very happy with it, as are the bands and the audiences. He said it took months cof tweaking to get it to where it is now but well worth it.

 

[OneEng]

its not so much that id disagree with anything you said if the economics of independent music weren't such that folks doing those shows seldom have these things in basements and coop spaces. its definitely a different skillset to cultivate existing in that universe

makes you thankful for shitty monitors when you DO get them, even though all i ever ask for is vocals and kick drum

in all honesty though, most of my banding experiences have been drilled through constant practice and reinforced via visual signals despite REALLY loud stage volume because of a super loud drummer. not always optimal, but totally negotiable. great for two guitar players working off each other? no. wed always get to recording and go 'OH you play THAT? ' (partially kidding.. but only partially). gestalt rock. :lol:

Yea, I can remember having this exact conversation with the other guitar player in a band I was in before we went with a silent stage! I also remember said other guitar player running off on a different part of the song when the lead singer accidentally missed the bridge. He couldn't hear what was going on and JUST KEPT PLAYING something different than the rest of the band!

That so often happens especially when a new band gets to the studio the first time....You've been playing THAT all along? I was playing this!

But man, their next show is WAY tighter and better because of it for sure

Yea, nothing like a recording to make you feel like crap about how you play and/or sing :). Man, those raw tracks are brutal!

I'm in 2 bands, both with the same drummer, he is a kick ass drummers and we are longtime bandmates from a previous band. He uses an upper tier Roland e-drums kit and is very happy with it, as are the bands and the audiences. He said it took months cof tweaking to get it to where it is now but well worth it.

The sound out front with an eDrum band is always tighter IME. Yes, I agree that it takes some tweaking to get it there, but once there, it is reproducible in every venue.

 

[OneEng]

One TRILLION percent! The limiting factor of sounding good in a club so often comes down to a race between deaf guitar players pointing their amps at their knees then turning up enough to hear it *while simultaneously rejecting any offer of guitars in the monitors* and drummers who can't read a room and hit their way too loud snare way too hard, while also not being able to hear above 6khz and insisting on buying cymbals that peak at 8k and thus needing to hit the cymbals super hard in order to hear them

Ironically, Singers and bass players appear to be the most open to a silent stage and IEM's (ie, the 2 least offensive sources of high stage volume in the first place) ..... while lead guitar players most frequently refuse because they can't hear "their sound". I have had pretty good luck with drummers and IEM's (or headphones) vs wedges simply because drummers are basically used to not being able to hear ANYTHING .... so when they get an IEM mix where they can FINALLY hear the rest of the band, they frequently like it.

 

[Stratzrus]

The sound out front with an eDrum band is always tighter IME. Yes, I agree that it takes some tweaking to get it there, but once there, it is reproducible in every venue.

What kind of tweaking do you do?

 

[OneEng]

What kind of tweaking do you do?

The majority of our eDrum tweaking involves what Kit is used on different songs, and what levels the different drums have in the kit. In a particular song, the snare may be more out front than it is in another song for example. The other thing we pay pretty close attention to is the tone of the kick drum as we feel this is one of the most important parts of the kit.

 

[ucnick]

Yea, I can remember having this exact conversation with the other guitar player in a band I was in before we went with a silent stage! I also remember said other guitar player running off on a different part of the song when the lead singer accidentally missed the bridge. He couldn't hear what was going on and JUST KEPT PLAYING something different than the rest of the band!

Yea, nothing like a recording to make you feel like crap about how you play and/or sing :). Man, those raw tracks are brutal!

The sound out front with an eDrum band is always tighter IME. Yes, I agree that it takes some tweaking to get it there, but once there, it is reproducible in every venue.

If I am able to run my signal into the PA I prefer to play with my amp in front of me, although it does cause issues since I also sing a lot and need to have a monitor for my vocals. I have attempted to use IEMs many times over the years so I can hear my vocals and guitar but it doesn't work very well when no one else In the band uses them.

I'm not against using IEMs in general, I do keep trying. Last spring I was briefly in a band that attempted to do the silent stage thing (drummer didn't have e-drums so it didn't work out very well as they tended to drown out the IEMs) and I quit after 2 rehearsals primarily because they spent more time getting their system to work than actually playing. It was very frustrating, especially when the users are not that knowledgeable about running theirsystem..