Question for bands using modeling

[OneEng]

or just do no mics on drums. in a small venue with a vocal pa and a band that gets dynamics, theres precisely zero issue with balancing drums and band. its how its always been. the issue isnt drums or drummers most times, its trying to sound like a recording at zero volume. its an expectation problem much more than an actual physical issue.

Personal taste, I would never gig without a kick mix and at least 1 subwoofer.

If you can find a drummer that can control those little hannies of his and keep from clobbering his kit to the point that even the guitar player can't hear himself, sure... It can work.

Not for me though. Vdrums or a new drummer.

 

[newholland]

Personal taste, I would never gig without a kick mix and at least 1 subwoofer.

If you can find a drummer that can control those little hannies of his and keep from clobbering his kit to the point that even the guitar player can't hear himself, sure... It can work.

Not for me though. Vdrums or a new drummer.

we all make choices. i cant even imagine a sub, nevermind monitors- nevermind a choice of mixes most times. if you have those things and get them, those are your non negotiables! i quitw literally wouldnt know what to do with them if i had em.

 

[Frodebro]

That's my favorite setup for small venues. There's a hole in the wall venue in Baltimore that we always play that is like that. Vocal PA only, amps, un mics drums and a bunch of drunken port workers in the audience. Just perfect lol. My favorite shows.

That was my world back in the 90s. All we had in the PA was vocals and kick, everything else was stage volume. In small rooms (our crowds were typically 150-200 people), it worked just fine. That was back in the days when you could crank up big amps and smoke & drink on stage.

 

[Orvillain]

I notice the differences mainly with cymbals - including hihat.

When you hit a real ride for example, in quick succession, something happens to the resonance. The 2nd hit is not the same as the first hit. The volume of each harmonic shifts and swells and blooms from hit to hit, adding tons of interest.

When you do the same pattern with samples, you get what was recorded; with none of the chaos inherent in the harmonic structure of a real ride.

Same with hihats. I don't hear it as much on kicks, snares, and toms.

But everyone should be aware by now - what you hear on most records is not the pure sound of an acoustic drumkit. That hasn't been the case generally speaking for at least 30 years.

 

[JiveTurkey]

That was my world back in the 90s. All we had in the PA was vocals and kick, everything else was stage volume. In small rooms (our crowds were typically 150-200 people), it worked just fine. That was back in the days when you could crank up big amps and smoke & drink on stage.

With this type of PA coverage, you could slip a few jazz notes in and no one would be the wiser

 

[GuitarBilly74]

I notice the differences mainly with cymbals - including hihat.

When you hit a real ride for example, in quick succession, something happens to the resonance. The 2nd hit is not the same as the first hit. The volume of each harmonic shifts and swells and blooms from hit to hit, adding tons of interest.

When you do the same pattern with samples, you get what was recorded; with none of the chaos inherent in the harmonic structure of a real ride.

Same with hihats. I don't hear it as much on kicks, snares, and toms.

But everyone should be aware by now - what you hear on most records is not the pure sound of an acoustic drumkit. That hasn't been the case generally speaking for at least 30 years.

I think that's true in some degree for every digital instrument out there. There are definitely some overtones and nuances that I get from playing my Super Lead that are definitely not the same with digital. Especially if I'm playing it dry. With effects it kind of goes away for the most part. But it's not something that would keep me from using it if the gig called for it.

 

[Frodebro]

With this type of PA coverage, you could slip a few jazz notes in and no one would be the wiser

Considering the amount of booze sales we generated for the bar where we had a running house gig for four years, nobody who actually noticed gave a shit anyway. That was actually a great gig for the most part. We played three nights a week, five 45 minute sets a night. Probably 70% of the crowd were regulars, so it was a very comfortable, super fun gig. And my chops & stamina were insane by the end of the run.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Considering the amount of booze sales we generated for the bar where we had a running house gig for four years, nobody who actually noticed gave a shit anyway. That was actually a great gig for the most part. We played three nights a week, five 45 minute sets a night. Probably 70% of the crowd were regulars, so it was a very comfortable, super fun gig. And my chops & stamina were insane by the end of the run.

It would be near impossible to get this steady of a gig in a singular place as well as find a group of people whose schedules would work. I bet it was a blast most of the time \m/

 

[Frodebro]

It would be near impossible to get this steady of a gig in a singular place as well as find a group of people whose schedules would work. I bet it was a blast most of the time \m/

It was a great gig for the most part, but toward the end of the run it honestly had become more work than fun. But the band was tight as fuck with the ability to just veer off in any direction and pull it off, and that in itself is something that I just haven’t been able to find since then.

 

[DrewJD82]

Here's an e-kit being used in a professional touring setting-



The whole stage is silent and even with that level of control, it still sounds like an e-kit to me. Skip around the whole show, all the "dynamics" you hear in the snare/hi-hat in the beginning are the same throughout the whole set. I'd also LOVE to hear one being played on a stage where real cabs are being utilized.

I'll be seeing this tour in the next couple months, I'm very anxious to hear how it sounds in the room. For Ryche, specifically, I'm certainly looking down on the use of an e-kit. If I were to ever play in a band utilizing an e-kit, I'd feel I were giving into "the audience doesn't care" and that's certainly not why I do any of this stuff.

 

[iaresee]

Skip around the whole show, all the "dynamics" you hear in the snare/hi-hat in the beginning are the same throughout the whole set.

The hats seem way too muted on intro to Jet City Woman. I don't think it's how he's playing them either.

 

[OneEng]

It certainly comes down to who you are playing for. No doubt about that.

I have very rarely heard a band utilizing a silent stage that isn't night-and-day better than a band that plays with high stage volume.

Now, part of that comes down to the level of the band IMO. A band that is using a Kemper or Axe IIIFx, TD50 drums, and all wireless IEM's likely has spent WAY north of 15K for their PA setup and instruments/amps/simulators. Generally speaking, these bands don't do dive bars (which is where my band sits). They only do the best local watering holes, and at this level also may tour regionally as well.

If you are doing a pair of rat fur covered 80's passive tops driven by a powered mixer and only amplifying the vocals with no monitors on stage, then you are likely only playing dive bars for $300 a night.

There is nothing wrong with this mind you. It is where I started out in the late 80's (or early 80's when I was in high school for that matter). Now, I am pretty particular about where we play, and very particular about how we sound when we do play.

It's not for everyone. Shoot, we have all likely had a blast at a home party on a patio with some friends before. If you love music, then having fun is what it is all about.

Still, one of my favorite memories was a really big venue on New Years. We played "Shook me all night long" right after the stroke of midnight when the count was finished. The light show was amazing and the fog released at midnight cast little tunnels of light across the fully packed dance floor that had extended way out into the audience. The shouts of joy when we started playing and that moment were .... priceless. Incidentally, by 4:00am when the bar closed, I was significantly less enthused, and considerably more exhausted :).

 

[pipelineaudio]

I'm still waiting to see if people are claiming that every hi hat and snare nuance can be created from an E-Kit...that's the why answer to the OP question.

Because they can't. Every sound the e-kit CAN produce is more than acceptable, its the sounds created by the techniques they can't (yet) produce that are the answer to why

 

[Lele]

I think that's true in some degree for every digital instrument out there. There are definitely some overtones and nuances that I get from playing my Super Lead that are definitely not the same with digital.

I'm still waiting to see if people are claiming that every hi hat and snare nuance can be created from an E-Kit...that's the why answer to the OP question

I don't want to start any controversy. However, I don't agree with the comparison of an electronic drum kit with a guitar amp modeler. They are different things. Modelers (in the current high-end versions) faithfully reproduce the behavior of an analog circuit. Then, one could argue that they don't like some detail of the sound, but there are no more real technical limits except for the reproduction systems (monitors, PA, etc). On the contrary an e-kit has technical limitations that cannot be overcome unless (maybe) by putting a very high number of sensors on the cymbals and drum heads, which is uneconomical and not feasible. Sure, the sound of an e-kit could satisfy the audience on several occasions, but the initial question of this thread was why acoustic drums aren't replaced with e-kits like they are with guitar amps. And for me the answer is still because the cost is much higher and the technical limitations of dynamics, harmonics and executive nuances that cannot be reproduced for now.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

Here's an e-kit being used in a professional touring setting-



The whole stage is silent and even with that level of control, it still sounds like an e-kit to me. Skip around the whole show, all the "dynamics" you hear in the snare/hi-hat in the beginning are the same throughout the whole set. I'd also LOVE to hear one being played on a stage where real cabs are being utilized.

I went to this show last year. It sounded amazing. This concert experience is actually what got me thinking about this subject and prompted me to ask this question.

Honestly a much better experience than the usual modeling + loud kit on stage that you get on smaller venues or even mid size venues when you're close to the stage.

I'd also LOVE to hear one being played on a stage where real cabs are being utilized.

Oh hell no

 

[pipelineaudio]

I don't want to start any controversy. However, I don't agree with the comparison of an electronic drum kit with a guitar amp modeler. They are different things. Modelers (in the current high-end versions) faithfully reproduce the behavior of an analog circuit. Then, one could argue that they don't like some detail of the sound, but there are no more real technical limits except for the reproduction systems (monitors, PA, etc). On the contrary an e-kit has technical limitations that cannot be overcome unless (maybe) by putting a very high number of sensors on the cymbals and drum heads, which is uneconomical and not feasible. Sure, the sound of an e-kit could satisfy the audience on several occasions, but the initial question of this thread was why acoustic drums aren't replaced with e-kits like they are with guitar amps. And for me the answer is still because the cost is much higher and the technical limitations of dynamics, harmonics and executive nuances that cannot be reproduced for now.

This sums up my claim as well.

Though I'm not sure about the cost. Every club owner I know would kill to buy an E-kit solution. Some have tried but the drummers won't take it. Even less will accept it than low volume cymbals in my experience (though I still push them like hell). The cost of an acoustic kit, mics, cables, maintenance, shrinkage, all the volume mitigation attempts and techniques, makes the cost of the most expensive e kit pretty affordable.

Here's an example of a common "rider friendly" mic set for drums. You would need at least two of these for a normal setup. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DDK4000--dpa-ddk4000-drum-mic-bundle

You could go cheaper, and still be rider friendly, but not by too much

 

[unix-guy]

I'm still waiting to see if people are claiming that every hi hat and snare nuance can be created from an E-Kit...that's the why answer to the OP question.

Because they can't. Every sound the e-kit CAN produce is more than acceptable, its the sounds created by the techniques they can't (yet) produce that are the answer to why

See my earlier post regarding the Gen16 low volume cymbals.

Those things go a long way towards solving the problem because they're actual acoustic cymbals.

 

[pipelineaudio]

See my earlier post regarding the Gen16 low volume cymbals.

Those things go a long way towards solving the problem because they're actual acoustic cymbals.

These are the zildjans I was talking about earlier hoping they get cheaper from competition

 

[OneEng]

we all make choices. i cant even imagine a sub, nevermind monitors- nevermind a choice of mixes most times. if you have those things and get them, those are your non negotiables! i quitw literally wouldnt know what to do with them if i had em.

LOL. And I can no longer imagine playing without wireless IEM's :). Shoot, these day's I am so spoiled I even feel slighted if I can't get a stereo IEM mix!

or just do no mics on drums. in a small venue with a vocal pa and a band that gets dynamics, theres precisely zero issue with balancing drums and band. its how its always been. the issue isnt drums or drummers most times, its trying to sound like a recording at zero volume. its an expectation problem much more than an actual physical issue.

A natural kick sounds like crap without reinforcement. Wouldn't dream of playing without micing the kick.

I'm still waiting to see if people are claiming that every hi hat and snare nuance can be created from an E-Kit...that's the why answer to the OP question.

Because they can't. Every sound the e-kit CAN produce is more than acceptable, its the sounds created by the techniques they can't (yet) produce that are the answer to why

With the exception of Jazz and possibly some blues, I would argue that no one in the audience could hear any of the nuances if they were there in amongst all the noise generated in a bar and the reflections of the PA and the rest of the stage volume all over the room.

I went to this show last year. It sounded amazing. This concert experience is actually what got me thinking about this subject and prompted me to ask this question.

Honestly a much better experience than the usual modeling + loud kit on stage that you get on smaller venues or even mid size venues when you're close to the stage.


Oh hell no

.... and this is where the rubber hits the road. The band is MUCH more likely to sound good out front with vDrums because of the lower stage volume. High stage volume is where good front of house sound goes to die, because at the end of the day, vocal microphones aren't smart enough to amplify ONLY the singers voice.... and they are by far the highest gain mics on stage.

 

[pipelineaudio]

With the exception of Jazz and possibly some blues, I would argue that no one in the audience could hear any of the nuances if they were there in amongst all the noise generated in a bar and the reflections of the PA and the rest of the stage volume all over the room.

A common example would be fast rolls. This is where I see drummers who refuse e-kits really draw the line...so far