QC vs Helix

[ian_dissonance]

Meh, any sound I could get any of NDSP plugins I’ve tried was there in Helix with a low cut/high boost ahead of the amp, setting the master volume a little higher than stock, and making sure the output was hitting around -6 in the DAW instead of the usual -10/-12 that comes out of HX Native stock presets.

 

[Orvillain]

Meh, any sound I could get any of NDSP plugins I’ve tried was there in Helix with a low cut/high boost ahead of the amp, setting the master volume a little higher than stock, and making sure the output was hitting around -6 in the DAW instead of the usual -10/-12 that comes out of HX Native stock presets.

Interesting. So another person not experiencing the same thing as @Lysander !!

 

[the swede]

We're getting close boys... I can feel it

Oh… and the song to… everybody sing it now!!!!

 

[Sleezy E]

Oh… and the song to… everybody sing it now!!!!

Look around.. tell me what you seeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[GTR37]

I don't understand why you're talking about EQ? The paper that Laxu linked is pretty clear about the methodology. Because I'm roughly half an idiot, I can't speak to specifics. But.... it seems to me:

- They send sounds (test signals) into the actual amplifier and record what comes out at different knob settings (like gain, bass, treble).
- They use a type of AI (a neural network) to learn the patterns between the input sounds, the amp’s knobs, and the output sounds.
- This process captures the amp’s full behavior, including complex interactions between the input signal and the controls.
- Once trained, this AI can take any input sound, simulate how the amp would change it, and let you tweak the virtual knobs just like the real amp.

So in what world would that not account for the feel of the original amp???

This little side-quest discussion has nothing to do with the original EQ point being parsed from what bishopgame "guessed" in his original comments, that has somehow become a kind of gospel, with no evidence whatsoever I might add.

What I am saying is they can match a tonestack and influence it has of the freq
But it the non linear things that will be tough to catch with that method

Cliff said it in one of Johns helix Recto matches , if you match the eq curve 100% to the amps controls 90% of the guitar players will say it is the same

But it’s the nonlinear behaviours that are harder to produce

I saw that they mention they can get full behaviour but how does that technique differ or compromise on what Ben from Line6 or Cliff are doing by measuring individual components and using schematics ?

 

[the swede]

Look around.. tell me what you seeeeeeeeeeeee

Never ending stooooooryyyyyyyyyyyy
Aaa a aaaa aaaa a aaaaa a aaaaahhhh

 

[Sleezy E]

Never ending stooooooryyyyyyyyyyyy
Aaa a aaaa aaaa a aaaaa a aaaaahhhh

 

[Orvillain]

What I am saying is they can match a tonestack and influence it has of the freq
But it the non linear things that will be tough to catch with that method

Cliff said it in one of Johns helix Recto matches , if you match the eq curve 100% to the amps controls 90% of the guitar players will say it is the same

But it’s the nonlinear behaviours that are harder to produce

I saw that they mention they can get full behaviour but how does that technique differ or compromise on what Ben from Line6 or Cliff are doing by measuring individual components and using schematics ?

I just don't think you understand what machine learning and neural networks are. They aren't just simply doing frequency matching. It accounts for all of the nonlinear behaviours that you are referring to.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Are the non-linear behaviours what things like NAM and Neural Networks in general do particularly well?

Isn’t black box stuff generally used mostly for dynamic non-linear parts of circuits? I’m sure I read that UAD model their plugins like that - isolate the linear and non linear parts of their circuit and tackle them accordingly.

 

[GTR37]

I just don't think you understand what machine learning and neural networks are. They aren't just simply doing frequency matching. It accounts for all of the nonlinear behaviours that you are referring to.

Then that’s a fair point I was not aware of that
Because their videos it just promotes TINA turning knobs and offering that data
Which technically a human could do albeit slowly
But if you are saying AI can also account for all the nonlinear behaviours like voltage sag, and impedance matching that’s great

 

[GTR37]

Are the non-linear behaviours what things like NAM and Neural Networks in general do particularly well?

Isn’t black box stuff generally used mostly for dynamic non-linear parts of circuits? I’m sure I read that UAD model their plugins like that - isolate the linear and non linear parts of their circuit and tackle them accordingly.

That 2 pronged approach or combination of both methodologies would appear to have the best ability to capture a difficult or complex circuit design you would think

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Plug-in Modelling: How Industry Experts Do It

Have you ever wondered exactly what goes on when classic hardware is recreated in plug-in form? Heres the full story from some of the industrys biggest names.

www.soundonsound.com

 

[Lysander]

Interesting. So another person not experiencing the same thing as @Lysander !!

Dude, he's literally stating QC models are way too bassy The shelf EQ thing is the exact same thing Igor mentioned as well.

 

[Orvillain]

Dude, he's literally stating QC models are way too bassy The shelf EQ thing is the exact same thing Igor mentioned as well.

He said:

any sound I could get any of NDSP plugins I’ve tried was there in Helix with a low cut/high boost ahead of the amp

Thus to make Helix match NDSP, he needs to cut lows on HELIX - not on QC.

Thus: Helix is bassier than NDSP, in his experience. Assuming he's not just being a total spoonface.

Also, he didn't say anything about shelves. You're obsessed with IKEA bro.

 

[the swede]

Shelving units

Shelving units

www.ikea.com

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

 

[I S]

From my attempts at going back and forth between the Rabea NDSP plugin and my Helix, it's quite obvious there is multi band compression happening after the last enabled block of the plugin. When I enable the EQ block of the plugin, there's this blooming pop, as if it hit some kind of compressor at the end. There's also some kind of smoothing happening on the high end somewhere along the fx chain. I can recreate this on Helix by putting a multi band compressor block after the cabs block and targeting the highs with light compression at around 2k and pulling that band down by 2.5dB or so.

Pulling down the highs makes me think of what we hear naturally when standing and a cab is on the floor. We hear more lows and mids than the highs when compared to a close-mic, which is exposed to way more highs.

In any case, at least with the Rabea plugin, the amps' behavior is very unnatural and yet extremely pleasing to play and listen to. Funny how that is for me.

 

[Eagle]

If you’re truly trying to have a digital version of an actual amplifier with all its features you can only really use modelling. But I still think the Kemper with the right profile used as is sounds incredibly close. If you make a profile and use the same guitar and cab to play it back through you have the closest thing to amp in the room digital I have managed to get. In this case you really struggle to tell them apart.

 

[Frodebro]

Quoting, "Who cares?"

I have to say that most listeners (if not all) wouldn't care what you are you using.

Most listeners wouldn't care if you had a piece of rusty barbed wire shoved up your bum either, but it would probably have an impact on you...

 

[GTR37]

Shelving units

Shelving units

www.ikea.com

Is a Finnish shelf different than a Swedish Shelf ?