Null Tests

[hunter]

We've all had our experiences with gazillions of plugins, modelers and different profiler platforms.

I think there's a trap to think someone can measure what's the best sound. But I'd rather use my fingers and my ears to judge.

I came to the Kemper (Stage) quite late. Had tried one 10 years ago and found it horrible, muffled and dead sounding. But the quality of their profiling, the effects and how well people manage to profile amps, as well as the Liquid Profile format, have changed this thing drastically for the better. Got one last year it just sounds and feels addictive and makes me wanna play more. All my Plugins, Tonex, Helix, UAFX gather dust since.
I see those null tests and they suggest that the Kemper would be "the worst". I couldn't care less to be honest.

Guitar playing and tone/feel is a very emotional thing and can't be measured. Don't just look at those values and believe that you know things.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

 

[2dor]

Although I'm a fan of getting as close to the real-deal when toying around with profiling tech, I do agree 100% - just use whatever makes you play more!

At the end of the day it's about playing & making music! A lot of the music we grew up with was made with gear that isn't as good as some of the more accessible stuff today.

 

[riffy]

Ya know, I am with you. A lot of people don’t seem to like Tonex, I love the thing. Sounds sublime to me.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

To me null tests give proof of profile/capture capability…if the results is equal or better then a unit I know delivers (determined by ears), id buy with confidence.

I know Kempers profiling results…so to me a better Null test then theirs, just tells me it also delivers, not that it sounds better.

But, if one doesn’t have that reference, I could imagine these tests being part of the decision making.
Problem is that it’s hard to relate a better/worse null test to actual impact on sound.

Its like this:

A This car is faster!
B…how much faster??
A…idnk, it’s faster!!…
B..10 mph, 100 mph?
A…Shut up..idnk…it’s faster!!
B..Did you ever reach the speed limit with either?
A…no…stfu…but it’s faster!
B…Does it go to 11?

 

[Eagle]

The null test is one that is designed for digital to pretty much always pass. It’s not the whole story and you can usually tell the difference if you are using it. The ONLY time I have found it hard to tell the difference as the player was using a Kemper in the studio with the cab block off but played back through the cab that had just been used to make the profile. The cab was not moved. ABY blind test with the cab in the room. The profile was made and then the Kemper was hooked up to the cab . I didn’t move position and no settings were altered.
I really couldn’t tell for sure.
Generally I don’t really care if it’s not identical as long as it’s a good sound with the dynamics of a tube amp but they rarely get the last part particularly with cleaner tones.,

 

[Eagle]

If you sit in the control room with a cab miked up in the basement and get playback through the monitors they all pass but cab in front of you is another story.

 

[Sedaxel]

Well, null tests are one way to "more or less" determine the accuracy of the capture. But it doesn´t tell the full story.

That said, I know a couple guitarists that ACTUALLY DO HEAR the Kemper signature. It´s not like an esoteric thing for them. They actually can feel it quite clearly and, even when it´s not blasting their minds, they don´t like to have that "don´t-know-what" thing in the mids in every profile. That same guys I know, instantly were amazed by the QC. They felt relief when they tried it and felt the captures are much closer to the amp.

I´m not sure I would detect that, honestly. I´m sure I´d enjoy the Kemper a lot. But knowing that it´s true that kpp profiles have always "that thing" I just prefer to have the certainty that the captures are more accurate.

 

[Eagle]

Well, null tests are one way to "more or less" determine the accuracy of the capture. But it doesn´t tell the full story.

That said, I know a couple guitarists that ACTUALLY DO HEAR the Kemper signature. It´s not like an esoteric thing for them. They actually can feel it quite clearly and, even when it´s not blasting their minds, they don´t like to have that "don´t-know-what" thing in the mids in every profile. That same guys I know, instantly were amazed by the QC. They felt relief when they tried it and felt the captures are much more

I´m not sure I would detect that, honestly. I´m sure I´d enjoy the Kemper a lot. But knowing that it´s true that kpp profiles have always "that thing" I just prefer to have the certainty that the captures are more accurate.

I know what you mean by a Kemper “sound” but I think in some cases it blends in with the profile and then you don’t notice it. It’s got significantly better in new software and it’s still only as good as your profile. That said if you got to see Mark Knopfler on his last tour that was all Kemper. His tech spent a long time making the profiles in Mark’s studio though.

 

[Sedaxel]

I know what you mean by a Kemper “sound” but I think in some cases it blends in with the profile and then you don’t notice it. It’s got significantly better in new software and it’s still only as good as your profile. That said if you got to see Mark Knopfler on his last tour that was all Kemper. His tech spent a long time making the profiles in Mark’s studio though.

I think the Kemper Stage is killer for live use. Really.

But I also think my buddy would not be 100% happy because of that tone signature he could clearly feel. Just because he could feel it, that´s it. He has his Mark II, and with the QC he replicated his rig tones (years of sculpting them to be almost perfect clones to the ones he needs) in a couple hours, and was ready to travel to the most important tour of his life. And he feels the tones are just like his amp ones. And he thinks the Kemper he tried back in the day didn´t get there.

I´m sure I would struggle to notice differences... So yeah... I guess We all have different ears and priorities.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

ot significantly better in new software and it’s still only as good as your profile

I disagree, it’s a bit of a crapshoot depending on the amp (as it ever was with Kemper). Some amps have a similar character to the “kemper sound” so you don’t notice it as much. Other amps expose it a lot more.

Not saying it isn’t good enough for some, but better options exist now that don’t suffer so badly from that issue.

 

[Orvillain]

A null test tells you one thing, and one thing only - it tells you if signal A is the same as signal B.

That's it.

Anything you extrapolate from that conclusion is a different thing.


That said, the Kemper sounds like absolute smegma to me. I hate the way it sounds, I hate the way it controls, I hate how it doesn't sound or react like a valve amp, I hate the way it blends from a gainy tone right down to a dull-as-fuck clean tone, and I hate the entire design and ethos of the device. I hate the mix law on the delays and reverbs, I hate the lack of true spillover when you put an effect before the amp. I hate the ... yknow what... I'm gonna let chatGPT finish this for me:

 

[Snags]

So you're generally not a fan, then?

 

[Orvillain]

So you're generally not a fan, then?

I'm more of a fan than AI is, apparently!

 

[laxu]

I got to give it to AI here, that "somehow always wearing cargo shorts" is brutal.

 

[Orvillain]

I got to give it to AI here, that "somehow always wearing cargo shorts" is brutal.

 

[BenIfin]

A null test tells you one thing, and one thing only - it tells you if signal A is the same as signal B.

That's it.

Anything you extrapolate from that conclusion is a different thing.


That said, the Kemper sounds like absolute smegma to me. I hate the way it sounds, I hate the way it controls, I hate how it doesn't sound or react like a valve amp, I hate the way it blends from a gainy tone right down to a dull-as-fuck clean tone, and I hate the entire design and ethos of the device. I hate the mix law on the delays and reverbs, I hate the lack of true spillover when you put an effect before the amp. I hate the ... yknow what... I'm gonna let chatGPT finish this for me:

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See ... if I posted all ^this^ formatting in a post I'd cop an absolute ribbing .... its just not fair

 

[2dor]

RareTone v2.1 is where it's at!

 

[woody]

A null test tells you one thing, and one thing only - it tells you if signal A is the same as signal B.

That's it.

Anything you extrapolate from that conclusion is a different thing.

QFE.
There's no "more or less null".
Two signals sum to null or they do not.

 

[[Nathan]]

Anytime I think about grabbing a kemper out of fascination, I just have to remember @Orvillain posts
Fresh reminder on how crazy it is NAM exists for studio folk. Of course it has other applications but ITB amp captures, really hard to entertain anything else.