Reamp Box Tonal Fidelity Experiment

[Slammin Mofo]

In order to see how accurate my usual reamp box (Walrus Audio Canvas Reamp) is compared to its competition, I measured its performance vial null test. While at it, I also tested a couple of other reamp devices that I had access to as well. The test consists of 3 DI tracks merged into one 2:05 minute long DI track with a high output bridge pickup, tele neck pickup and a jazz bass neck+bridge pickup section. The results so far are the following (from best to worst):

1. Signal Art Reamp Box (No Mod) Now Available As "United Replay Box": -37.0 dBFS

2. Lehle P-Split III: -36.5 dBFS

3.. Walrus Audio Canvas Reamp: -34.4 dBFS

4. AMT Reincarnator RD-2: -33.4 dBFS

5. AXE I/O Reamp Out Pure: -33.0 dBFS

6. AXE I/O Reamp Out Clean Boosted with Empress Buffer +: -31.1 dBFS

Here's the folder that contains all the files including the main DI test signal. The P-Split, Reincarnator and Canvas were all tested with an Apollo X8 line outpu and Hi-Z input, the Axe I/O was tested with its reamp out and its own Hi-Z 2 input. The results folder also show the frequency responses of the null tests that:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

If you want to participate in this little experiment as well, so that you can see how your reamp box stacks up against other units, you have to do the following:

• Open up a 48kHz/24bit 120.00 BPM project inside your DAW and insert the "MAIN_DI_TEST_SIGNAL" wav file into the project.

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• Route this signal via line out into your reamp box input and keep the level attenuation off or any level boosts off (signal art boost the level past unit for example)

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• Route the reamp box output into a Hi-Z input

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• Put the DI signal through the reamp box and record the output signal in a mono track in your DAW

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• Since DAWs can add their own little quirks after each import/export, export both the DI signal and output signal as mono 48kHz/24bit 120.00BPM tracks and post them here. I'll load these files into my project and do the null test for you, even though it might be more precise if everything's done on the machine that recorded the output track.

If you want to do the Null Test yourself in order to generate the comparative dBFS number:

• Maximally zoom into the tracks and align them exactly, if possible down to a sample, and level match the output track afterwards to the DI signal

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• Add +8.00 dB of clean boost to both tracks after the alignment and initial level matching is done

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• Route both signals into your master/main bus, add another +20.00 dB of clean boost on the master bus and use a EQ and metering (integrated loudness in dBFS) plugin after the +20.00 dB boost

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• Flip the phase on the DI signal and run both tracks for the whole ca. 2 minutes and note the number dBFS integrated loudness number you get from the metering plugin afterwards

There's also a "read me" text file included that outlines the process as well.

It would be intersting to see how reamp boxes like the Radial JCR or ProRMP, Signal Art Reamp or Little Labs RedEye 3d fare in this test. Of course, a test with real amp recordings would be even better, but not everybody has the same amp with the same parts tolerances.

Let me know if you want to participate in this little test and if there are any uncertainties regarding the whole procedure. You can also chime in and let me know if this test is futile or not good enough etc., any critique is welcome!

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Nicely done!

If other people were to do this test, how would you account for:

- the differences in D/A (which vary a lot, both in level and fidelity)
- the influence of the DI (both of itself, and also if it interacts with a reamp box, which can happen with nothing in between especially when transformers are involved).
- The influence of A/D

 

[Slammin Mofo]

Nicely done!

If other people were to do this test, how would you account for:

- the differences in D/A (which vary a lot, both in level and fidelity)
- the influence of the DI (both of itself, and also if it interacts with a reamp box, which can happen with nothing in between especially when transformers are involved).
- The influence of A/D

You're raising valid concerns and I experienced problems associated with them first hand. I contacted a few members, 2dor and studioampcaptures, to provide their reamp box measurements, but we soon came to the realisation that the differences between the entire recording setups are too big to make the null tests comparable.

Since I don't have every reamp box available out there, I can only provide the few ones that I do have and hope that we can extrapolate from here on out, meaning that if somebody has a Lehle and another different reamp box, he could measure both and share the results. That way, we'd know the relative difference between the boxes.

In fact, 2dor had a Lehle P-Split III which he measured along with his Signal Art Reamp box and the Signal Art was better in the null test by 0.5 dB.

That would put the Signal Art at first place in my ranking above at -37.0 dBFS. That's the way this extrapolation could work. It's still not perfect but should serve as a reasonable guide for reamp box buyers. The only downside is that the maker has to be in possession of at least one reamp box that's already part of this list so that the relative ranking can be assessed. There's also the recommended max input gain for any transformer, that can color the tone also if driven differently depending on the recording system etc. It's not perfect, but it's a reasonable attempt to point new buyers to quality reamp boxes.

I wish I had this list available in the beginning, was a bit disappointed by the Walrus. It's not bad, but it does shave off some low-end which can be notiecable.

The biggest revelation to me, however, was how impactful the Hi-Z input of the X8 is. It adds more upper mids and cuts the lows quite a bit compared to my newly acquired Traverse Analogue Mass-DI active DI Box. That probably plays an even bigger factor in the whole capture process as I connected my first gen Suhr Reactive Loud Output to the Hi-Z input of the X8, just how John Suhr recommends it (he himself also uses a UA interface).

Still astounded at how mediocre the Hi-Z input of a 2k+ interface is, should've checked out the Hi-Z versus DI Box comparison videos on youtube way earlier.

I also hope to end the reamp box discussion once and for all with a very high quality Jensen transformer reamp box. After all, the reamp box's quality is solely determined by the transformer. The Jensen's are known for superb transient conservation and a flat, phase-coherent frequency response, if wound for that application. I'll let you guys know how that project turns out. 160 USD in parts costs. Let's see if it one-ups the Signal Art, which has 80 bucks cinemag transformers in it.

 

[2dor]

I finally got another Lehle P-Split today & measured it against the Signal Art.

I used the RME Fireface interface and shot a -12 dBFS sweep out to each reamp box and back into the RME via the Hi-Z input.

They're very close.

 

[Mongillo19]

Speaking of the P Split I just got one in and I cannot for the life of me get my amp to reamp properly I have output of my Evo 8 going into the input of the P Split, output of the P Split into front of amp, amp into Suhr RL which feeds back into EVO 8.

The WAV file just has so much noise and almost seems like when I reach a certain volume, there is some weird constant background noise. I might make a video because I really want to try and capture my SLO.

Any advice would be cool!

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

I‘m confused. I always thought the P-Split is just a (very good) passive signal splitter. I didn‘t know it can convert a line to an instrument level signal, like a reamp box does.

 

[Mongillo19]

I‘m confused. I always thought the P-Split is just a (very good) passive signal splitter. I didn‘t know it can convert a line to an instrument level signal, like a reamp box does.

I don't know the ins and outs but maybe the older P Splits couldn't? The P Split III can be a reamp box

 

[2dor]

Speaking of the P Split I just got one in and I cannot for the life of me get my amp to reamp properly I have output of my Evo 8 going into the input of the P Split, output of the P Split into front of amp, amp into Suhr RL which feeds back into EVO 8.

The WAV file just has so much noise and almost seems like when I reach a certain volume, there is some weird constant background noise. I might make a video because I really want to try and capture my SLO.

Any advice would be cool!

You need to use the ISO socket going to the amp.

 

[2dor]

I don't know the ins and outs but maybe the older P Splits couldn't? The P Split III can be a reamp box

The P-SPLIT III is actually a great reamp box.
Looking solely at the frequency response, it's up there with the best of the best. The only advantage of the Signal Art is it can boost the signal above unity gain.

 

[Mongillo19]

You need to use the ISO socket going to the amp.

Sorry I was being too general. Yeah I'm using the ISO out to my amp. I feel like it has to be a AI issue?

Or user error

 

[2dor]

Sorry I was being too general. Yeah I'm using the ISO out to my amp. I feel like it has to be a AI issue?

Or user error

Can't say unless you post what your workflow is, levels & gear used. Maybe try the GND lift.

You can also flip the sockets around; plug the Line Out into the ISO and the P-SPLIT's input port to the Input of the amp; fiddle with the GND lift button and the phase.

Start with them pushed out, reamp the NAM signal back into the DAW (don't feed it into the amp yet) and see which settings get you the least amount of noise & have a waveform as close to the source signal as possible.

 

[Mongillo19]

Can't say unless you post what your workflow is, levels & gear used. Maybe try the GND lift.

You can also flip the sockets around; plug the Line Out into the ISO and the P-SPLIT's input port to the Input of the amp; fiddle with the GND lift button and the phase.

Start with them pushed out, reamp the NAM signal back into the DAW (don't feed it into the amp yet) and see which settings get you the least amount of noise & have a waveform as close to the source signal as possible.

I'll give this a try! Thank you!

 

[2dor]

If anybody wants to zoom in on the Lehle P-SPLIT III vs SignalArt measurements, just load this up in Room EQ Wizard:

2.88 MB file on MEGA

mega.nz

 

[2dor]

It's been a little bit of a long time coming but I wanted to report back with my own testing. My setup & workflow are as follows:

• I reamped a DI track with some guitar playing into the Instrument input (Hi-Z) of my RME UCX II audio interface

• I calibrated each reamp box to the Instrument input (Hi-Z) by shooting a -12 dBFS @ 1KHz sine via the line out, into each reamp box and back into the instrument input. The reading I got from both loadboxes was the same as whatever I was sending from the DAW via the line out (-12, -6, -3, 0, -18 etc)

• I reamped the DI track through both the Lehle P-SPLIT III and the Signal Art

• I aligned the DI and each track to the best of my ability, paying close attention to peaks and "pass through 0" sections

• I flipped the phase on the "reamped" signal from both loadboxes and used dpMeterXT3 on the Master bus for the entire duration of the DI track

The results are as follows:

• Lehle P-Split III: -65.1 dBFS Integrated IL

• Signal Art: -63.9 dBFS Integrated IL

So, the Lehle P-SPLIT III performs better in a null test by about 1.2 dBFS using my setup.

Audio files & screenshots are available here: https://mega.nz/folder/nswnVCiB#E9DW7BFMzGIszEtHFNPk6w

 

[Humbug]

Speaking of the P Split I just got one in and I cannot for the life of me get my amp to reamp properly I have output of my Evo 8 going into the input of the P Split, output of the P Split into front of amp, amp into Suhr RL which feeds back into EVO 8.

The WAV file just has so much noise and almost seems like when I reach a certain volume, there is some weird constant background noise. I might make a video because I really want to try and capture my SLO.

Any advice would be cool!

Did you solve this? I'm having similar issues with my setup and I'm stumped...

 

[Mongillo19]

Did you solve this? I'm having similar issues with my setup and I'm stumped...

I did not are you new to reamping as well?

 

[Humbug]

I did not are you new to reamping as well?

No, I have reluctantly done it to fix shitty guitar recordings in the past. But that was on a setup that Just Worked(tm) and not one that I had pieced together myself. I'll let you know if I find a good solution :-)

 

[Mongillo19]

No, I have reluctantly done it to fix shitty guitar recordings in the past. But that was on a setup that Just Worked(tm) and not one that I had pieced together myself. I'll let you know if I find a good solution :-)

Please do! I swear I have everything hooked up right, I feel like I'm just missing something small.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I know it’s an obvious thing to try, but what happens when you press the ground and polarity buttons? do both outputs behave the same?

I’m guessing it’s just a case of isolating each part of the chain and working out what’s going on.

 

[laxu]

Speaking of the P Split I just got one in and I cannot for the life of me get my amp to reamp properly I have output of my Evo 8 going into the input of the P Split, output of the P Split into front of amp, amp into Suhr RL which feeds back into EVO 8.

The WAV file just has so much noise and almost seems like when I reach a certain volume, there is some weird constant background noise. I might make a video because I really want to try and capture my SLO.

Any advice would be cool!

Since I've got all the same gear but a different loadbox and amp.

I haven't got it hooked up atm, but I used something like this:

• EVO 8 out 3 -> P-Split input.
  • Can be a balanced or unbalanced cable.
  • Set Out 3/4 to mono in the EVO mixer.
  • Option/Alt + mouse click the Out 3 slider to set it to 0 dB so that out is now audible through output 2 (output jacks 3/4).
  • Make sure the output 2 knob is all the way up. This is an easy thing to forget!
  • You might want to enable the Artist Mix option from the EVO mixer settings so that you can have a separate mix between Out 1/2 and Out 3/4.
• P-Split ISO out -> amp input.
  • Try the ISO vs DIR output, phase switch and ground lift...whatever gives you the least noise is the right option.
• Amp speaker out -> Suhr RL.
• Suhr RL balanced XLR out -> EVO 8 Mic in 2.

I'd aim to get a strong signal close to 0 dB into Mic in 2. Try to just use the DI level on the Suhr RL for this and you can probably leave the EVO mic pre level all the way down or close to it.