Modelling Hate ?

[JT]

I think ANY kind of hyperbole, in EITHER direction; is a huge turnoff.

 

[Bob Zaod]

View attachment 1307

This thing sounded amazing back in the day to me. Loved it!

The Treadplate model in that still hasnt been matched since.

 

[DrewJD82]

There’s still so many people who have the early years of kidney bean PODs in their mind when they think modeling. Or they read the numerous threads about ‘amp in the room’ and use that as their “Modelers suck” point. The only way, in my experience, to change their minds is to run a modeler into the return of one of their amps. That instantly got my buddy who is a 100% tube purist to admit modeling sounds great and even that came with “That sounds great but there’s no f*ckin’ way am I pushing buttons and scrolling through menus to get a guitar tone, I just want to plug in and turn the amp on.”

I get that POV entirely.

I mean, just the other day I got into a debate with someone who use the “Hendrix and Page didn’t need it so no one else does. Pointless” in the discussion about true temperament frets, guitarists are the worst when it comes to breaking tradition. What cracked me up the most was the guy said “Would “Unchained” be a better song if Eddie had bent frets?” to which my reply was “By any chance, did Ed need to use a tempered/compensated tuning so he could play chords up the neck in tune better than standard tuning offered?”

 

[Jarick]

First time I've gigged with the helix (with a 4x12 on stage and feeding the pa with an IR) the sound guy asked me "man, your helix sounds very good how do you do that?"

I was .

Talking with him I've discovered he was a guitar player and had an helix and was struggling to make it sound good. Again me "I don't know, I just load and amp and play"

I bet he didn't like his sound even with a tube amp and crossed a lot of bad sounding guitarists with orribile sounding presets.

Months later we did a contest with our band and I've heard so many bad sounding guitar tones coming from various modellers on stage that based on that experience one might say that modelers sound like s**t.

There's a lot of players out there unable to get a good sound out of their tools.

I think as the tools get more complex, and there's more options, it's a lot easier to get a bad tone. Even without modelers.

If you went back in time to 1970 and got an old Les Paul and a 100 watt Marshall, it's not going to take a lot of effort to get a kick ass rock and roll tone. There just weren't as many options and places for things to go wrong. There's bass, middle, treble, presence, and volume.

When I was gigging in the 2000's, the dream setup for many guitarists was a Mesa Dual Rectifier. That's an easy amp to dial in poorly. Crank up the bass and treble, scoop the mids, use too much gain, and don't use any kind of boost to tighten the low end. It's going to sound like complete ass, which is what most of the bands I played with sounded like. Or more common was to use a Metal Zone into a solid state amp (hey I had a setup like that), which is again super easy to sound terrible.

Now when you let guitarists dial in terrible sounds virtually then add the complexity of cab/mic modeling on top of controlling the playback system, it can quickly become a disaster.

 

[Lopp]

Tube amps getting more expensive while their disadvantages are steadily growing and the main group of tube amp consumers are not getting any younger and electric guitar is not getting any more popular.
It is amazing that tube amps survived past the last decade where modelers like Kemper and Fractal and most importantly IRs became the norm in professional studios and live performances.

I'll agree that tube amps have disadvantages. However, aside from guitarists being set in their ways and/or wanting to play what their idols played, I would propose a big reason tube amps still survive is because of IRs.

I don't know about you, but I cannot get my FM9, formerly an AX8, formerly the original Axe-Fx, through IRs to sound close to the way it sounds in person through my 4x12. I'll need to try others, but I've went through all of the stock Mesa 4x12 IRs and cannot get the thump or the sizzle of my actual 4x12. It is likely not the monitors, as I am using two QSC HPR 122is (sometimes IK Multimedia MTMs). It is definitely not the modeling, as running the AX8 through the Mesa solved the issue. I would be open to suggestions, but think I just need to keep searching for a grail IR, despite having played Axe-Fx since 2008. Either way, playing IRs through monitors was the biggest issue I have encountered in not getting a modeler to sound as good as my actual amps in the room.

There’s still so many people who have the early years of kidney bean PODs in their mind when they think modeling. Or they read the numerous threads about ‘amp in the room’ and use that as their “Modelers suck” point. The only way, in my experience, to change their minds is to run a modeler into the return of one of their amps. That instantly got my buddy who is a 100% tube purist to admit modeling sounds great and even that came with “That sounds great but there’s no f*ckin’ way am I pushing buttons and scrolling through menus to get a guitar tone, I just want to plug in and turn the amp on.”

Yeah. Running the modeler through their amp return will put the modeler through the cab they are used to playing, which will give them what they expect to hear.

And yeah. Pushing a bunch of buttons and scrolling through menus is tedious when your amp/modeler is a means to an end: playing. Instead of an end itself: tweaking. A little tweaking is even necessary with amps, but dealing with all the tweakable parameters, especially scrolling through a gazillion IRs, both stock and aftermarket, can be tedious and tiring.

 

[JT]

I'll agree that tube amps have disadvantages. However, aside from guitarists being set in their ways and/or wanting to play what their idols played, I would propose a big reason tube amps still survive is because of IRs.

I don't know about you, but I cannot get my FM9, formerly an AX8, formerly the original Axe-Fx, through IRs to sound close to the way it sounds in person through my 4x12. I'll need to try others, but I've went through all of the stock Mesa 4x12 IRs and cannot get the thump or the sizzle of my actual 4x12. It is likely not the monitors, as I am using two QSC HPR 122is (sometimes IK Multimedia MTMs). It is definitely not the modeling, as running the AX8 through the Mesa solved the issue. I would be open to suggestions, but think I just need to keep searching for a grail IR, despite having played Axe-Fx since 2008. Either way, playing IRs through monitors was the biggest issue I have encountered in not getting a modeler to sound as good as my actual amps in the room.


Yeah. Running the modeler through their amp return will put the modeler through the cab they are used to playing, which will give them what they expect to hear.

And yeah. Pushing a bunch of buttons and scrolling through menus is tedious when your amp/modeler is a means to an end: playing. Instead of an end itself: tweaking. A little tweaking is even necessary with amps, but dealing with all the tweakable parameters, especially scrolling through a gazillion IRs, both stock and aftermarket, can be tedious and tiring.

It's the monitors.

 

[Lopp]

It's the monitors.

Thanks for the tip. I've tried my modelers through the QSCs, through iLoud MTMs (with a Yamaha HS8 sub, which shouldn't really influence a guitar tone), through Sennheiser, B&W, and Meze headphones, and cannot get the vibe I get from my 4x12.

Suggestions? I am considering the Adam A7X, but am trying to sell the QSCs first.

 

[DrewJD82]

I'll agree that tube amps have disadvantages. However, aside from guitarists being set in their ways and/or wanting to play what their idols played, I would propose a big reason tube amps still survive is because of IRs.

I don't know about you, but I cannot get my FM9, formerly an AX8, formerly the original Axe-Fx, through IRs to sound close to the way it sounds in person through my 4x12. I'll need to try others, but I've went through all of the stock Mesa 4x12 IRs and cannot get the thump or the sizzle of my actual 4x12. It is likely not the monitors, as I am using two QSC HPR 122is (sometimes IK Multimedia MTMs). It is definitely not the modeling, as running the AX8 through the Mesa solved the issue. I would be open to suggestions, but think I just need to keep searching for a grail IR, despite having played Axe-Fx since 2008. Either way, playing IRs through monitors was the biggest issue I have encountered in not getting a modeler to sound as good as my actual amps in the room.


Yeah. Running the modeler through their amp return will put the modeler through the cab they are used to playing, which will give them what they expect to hear.

And yeah. Pushing a bunch of buttons and scrolling through menus is tedious when your amp/modeler is a means to an end: playing. Instead of an end itself: tweaking. A little tweaking is even necessary with amps, but dealing with all the tweakable parameters, especially scrolling through a gazillion IRs, both stock and aftermarket, can be tedious and tiring.

Well, you’re not going to get the same thump and sizzle as your Mesa 4x12 from any pair of speakers unless it’s a pair of Mesa 4x12’s.

That said, you can indeed find the right IR that will sound like your Mesa 4x12 with a mic on it, running into some studio monitors. Your best bet is to record your Mesa 4x12 with a mic in a DAW, then do the IR search using that recorded clip as the thing to match to. There’s way too many variables involved in trying to make studio monitors sound/feel like a guitar cab, especially a 4x12. Just the room it’s in alone will screw with things on a massive level.

The only reason I was able to get into modeling and fall in love with is was because by 2018 or so, I had spent about a decade listening to a mic’d cabinet through studio monitors more than I had spent in front of the actual cabs.

And sometimes I feel like I’m alone with this, but once I had my go-to presets dialed in, I haven’t tweaked them unless I’m adding an effects block to it or something. At most, I’ll record whatever I’m working on and just hit it with some post-EQ to suit the mix better, but spending time tweaking when I want to be recording is a huge waste of time to me. Funk dat.

 

[Lopp]

Well, you’re not going to get the same thump and sizzle as your Mesa 4x12 from any pair of speakers unless it’s a pair of Mesa 4x12’s.

That said, you can indeed find the right IR that will sound like your Mesa 4x12 with a mic on it, running into some studio monitors. Your best bet is to record your Mesa 4x12 with a mic in a DAW, then do the IR search using that recorded clip as the thing to match to. There’s way too many variables involved in trying to make studio monitors sound/feel like a guitar cab, especially a 4x12. Just the room it’s in alone will screw with things on a massive level.

Exactly.

The only reason I was able to get into modeling and fall in love with is was because by 2018 or so, I had spent about a decade listening to a mic’d cabinet through studio monitors more than I had spent in front of the actual cabs.

And sometimes I feel like I’m alone with this, but once I had my go-to presets dialed in, I haven’t tweaked them unless I’m adding an effects block to it or something. At most, I’ll record whatever I’m working on and just hit it with some post-EQ to suit the mix better, but spending time tweaking when I want to be recording is a huge waste of time to me. Funk dat.

 

[Gearzilla]

Thanks for the tip. I've tried my modelers through the QSCs, through iLoud MTMs (with a Yamaha HS8 sub, which shouldn't really influence a guitar tone), through Sennheiser, B&W, and Meze headphones, and cannot get the vibe I get from my 4x12.

Suggestions? I am considering the Adam A7X, but am trying to sell the QSCs first.

The modeler either has to go through in the room an actual speaker or reflection free IR(virtually unobtainium IR) into neutral monitor(s).

Otherwise it’s going to be the recorded version of how an amp sounds.

 

[DrewJD82]

Exactly.

Also, just buy York IR’s. You’ll find what you‘re looking for rather quickly without scrolling through 900 IR’s that sound like a mic moving around a fishbowl. I’d have saved a LOT of time and money if I just used York’s from the start. I now have 45,000 IR’s on my computers doing f*ck all because all I use are York’s.

That said, Austin Buddy’s Live Gold preset pack uses mainly stock IR’s and he did an AMAZING job pairing them up with amps. I don’t even want to know how much time that guy spent on building that preset pack, never mind updating it every time Cliff does a major overhaul.

 

[ragingplatypi]

I’m just here for the "FRFR" hate.

(joking!)

 

[la szum]

OMG, there’s a Squier forum?!

I imagine every third post is “how my Squier plays better than a Custom Shop”. Surprised they also slag modeling, WTF?

Haha! Or. "I have upgraded my Squier to the point that it costs as much as a Fender Custom Shop."

 

[surffisherman]

I presume those are middle aged men who started playing in their 30s, bought an LP, 100W tube amp and stupid amount of pedals (there was that one guy who built "all white pedalboard", all white pedals, seriously) because "ThAt's WhAt JiMi UsEd AnD iF iT wAs GoOd FoR hIm It MuSt Be ThE bEsT tHiNg EvEr".
But when it comes to actually playing they can barely play anything other than three basic chords, can't stay in tempo, Led Zeppelin was the pinnacle of music, anything faster than 104 bpms is stupid shred with no feel, and music theory is the devils work designed to kill your creativity.
Am I close?

I would bet those middle aged men can play far better than most youngsters these days, the majority started playing while very very young not in their 30's . Most were brought up during the tube amp days so that certainly has an impact on why they prefer them over non tube stuff.

Of course the younger generation are going to be much more into modelers , whatever is most popular when a person is growing up they will naturally gravitate to . Many old salts have scrapped tube amps for modelers so they aren't just popular with youngsters these days .

Most modelers are considerably cheaper than good tube amps which is also a major factor.

 

[Sleezy E]

speaking of old.. I found a pic that crosses the streams of 2 threads here

I'm playing my #1 Parker Nitefly (at the time) and running a gt3 into a hafler power amp and a v30/G12t-75 4x12. This picture is before I built the upper rack unit apparently.

You kinda see a bit of the gt3 on the floor. This is June of 2001
People thought I was weird and well.... look at me

 

[Elric]

Full stop.

Agree. The POD was a much bigger deal than the first Axe, IMHO. And was the point where people really started to argue about whether digital emulations were sufficient or not.

Axe started to address the cab problem that had been plaguing digital units and introduced the concept of premium priced modelers. IMHO.

 

[the-trooper]

I would bet those middle aged men can play far better than most youngsters these days

Nah, those that shit on modelers, digital or guitars that aren't Gibson and Fender do not. They started playing two years ago, and they play by feel man. Because Jimi played by feel man.
The fact that he played 12 hours a day doesn't faze them. It's all in feel, and tubes, and toanwood, and type of finish, and air pressure and relative moisture...

Those that can play, play.

A nasty generalization, of course, there are different sides of coins on both sides of the coin

 

[ManWithGas]

I have tube amps and a modeller but for me, I much prefer the modeller these days as I can pull some great tones both clean and filthy at any volume.

I can also 100% achieve the amp in the room feel and tone so why not use it over the back breakers & FOH haters that are my tube beasts.

 

[ejecta]

This thread is strong with painting of certain age groups and fans of certain genres with broad brush strokes which IMHO a clear sign your points are weak.

 

[Deadpan]

That being said; there's also the equivalent "I bought the Axsys in 1999 for $2700 so obviously I know what I'm talking about when we talk about modeling" thing that comes from the "Other side" that is equally as

Wow, I paid $999 for mine on release and the next year I think bought the upgrade kit for $80.