Modelling Hate ?

It's interesting how different devices have converted people over time.

Axe FX was the first really good sounding modeler. Between using impulse responses and improvements in amp and effect modeling, it was actually possible to go direct with a modeler and get a great tone. Seems like the first people to adopt were some of the modern metal djent guys.

Kemper was the next big shift, and with the ability to profile amps and get a great tone without programming or tweaking, it started to show up in pro rigs on tour. Michael Britt probably had a big hand in the adoption too, and it's crazy to think devices released in 2011 or whatever are still on tour without much "need" to upgrade. Seems that a lot of pro touring guitarists came around with the Kemper.

While Helix kind of brought modeling more mainstream and to mass retail, I think it was the Helix LT and the HX Stomp that opened modeling up even more. Having flagship amp and effect modeling in the size of an effects pedal was a real game changer. You could easily and affordably sneak it onto a pedalboard, and then players started to dabble with the amp modeling more as a standalone. This is where a lot more weekend gigging guitarists and especially the P&W group started to buy into modelers.

The Boss Katana and Fender Tone Master opened up modeling to guitarists who wanted zero menus and a really basic interface. The Katana basically seemed to replace the Peavey Bandit as the cheap and reliable gigging combo, although I doubt anyone sold all their tube amps when they got one. The Tone Master though is a high quality modeling amp that was basically just seeking to make one sound really well, and unless you were specifically looking for the badging, you'd never know it wasn't a tube amp. These brought in more gigging guitarists.

And then you have plugins, especially the Neural DSP ones, that have brought in even more guitarists, especially those doing a lot of home recording.

At this point, you mostly just have tube amp purists and all the guitarists who gig and play but don't go online.
 
I hate owning an Axefx3....I mean who in their right mind wants to have an entire LARGE music store full of top of the line amps, cabs, and effects at their finger tips. Most of all I would never want to give up the absolute joy of holding a flash light in my mouth while running patch cables between it all. ARE YOU INSANE!?
 
Jarick said:
It's interesting how different devices have converted people over time.

Axe FX was the first really good sounding modeler.
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Full stop.
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The benefit of fitting my entire gig haul in the trunk of my Camry while still sounding great through the PA far outweighs the amp in the room sound you get with a conventional amp and cab.

Here is a question. If tone is in the fingers, then why would anyone have an issue with using a modeler?
 
Orvillain said:
You don't need modelling if you're only playing Mustang Sally and Mr Brightside to your overweight Gin & Tonic drowned ex-wife and her 4 chihuahua's.
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No wonder she drowned herself in Gin & Tonic.

Interesting mental picture of 4 overweight Gin & Tonic drowned chihuahuas.

Stone said:
Strat Talk, Gretsch Talk, TDPRI, My les Paul Forum, The Marshall Forum, Squire Talk etc...
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paisleywookiee said:
The Marshall forum was less than receptive?

You Dont Say Nicholas Cage GIF
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Fortunately, you beat me to it, because your response was cleverer than I planned.
 
Because of the way they capture the tone after the cabs + post-processing, I think a certain amount of hate comes from not paying enough attention to the equally-important part of using them, which is how you're monitoring your sounds. In my understanding, they're not primarily intended to simply replace an amp.

I have to dial in completely different presets for when I run my Axe III thru my Mesa stereo amp & Recto cabs. But in that case, in a way I'm limiting its possibilities, unless I'm only using it for the effects. (Which was actually my main reason for buying it in the first place.)

A good friend of mine told me, back when I was thinking of getting one, that that's what "everybody" was using now. Obviously not true, but I initially resisted the idea. But I couldn't deny the results when I heard his band play live. They sounded clearer than I'd ever heard them before, and the tones the guitarist were getting sounded good. Not "great", but more along the lines of a recorded sound, as opposed to a live band with amps on the stage. But that's all me, because I still love that experience. But it definitely has its drawbacks, because ime, the sound has big differences, depending on where you're sitting.

Like last night I saw I saw a Kiss (ugh!) tribute band from the upper balcony, and they had Marshall stacks on stage which you could hear fine on the floor, but they didn't cut thru in the upper seats.
 
TSJMajesty said:
Because of the way they capture the tone after the cabs + post-processing, I think a certain amount of hate comes from not paying enough attention to the equally-important part of using them, which is how you're monitoring your sounds. In my understanding, they're not primarily intended to simply replace an amp.
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That is indeed the reason many people diss on modelers. They are comparing the modeler through monitors to an amp through a guitar cabinet.

It is not the amp modeler that is lacking, it is the difference between listening to an amp through modelers via an IR and listening to an amp through a guitar cabinet.
 
I don’t hate modelers at all, but I’m just simple. I really like the idea of an AxeFx or Kemper, etc, for recording, simple transportation, etc., but it is overkill for me. And getting into IRs is a whole other enchilada. I’ll get there sooner rather than later with a reactive load.

I really only would use 2-3 amp models and maybe some delay, reverb and sometimes a detune. I had an Egnater M4 for a while (which is basically an analog amp modeler—excellent product) and sold it because I was only using two models most of the time and they were both Marshall based, so I bought a Marshall.

Hate tweaking, too. Sold a Mark IV because of that. But the big switch is inevitable, I think, as tubes amps don’t seem like a long-term, sustainable business model anymore the way the quality of tubes has been.
 
mk5 said:
I think, as tubes amps don’t seem like a long-term, sustainable business model anymore the way the quality of tubes has been.
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It is a huge conundrum;
Tube amps getting more expensive while their disadvantages are steadily growing and the main group of tube amp consumers are not getting any younger and electric guitar is not getting any more popular.
It is amazing that tube amps survived past the last decade where modelers like Kemper and Fractal and most importantly IRs became the norm in professional studios and live performances.
 
Sleezy E said:
I was gigging with a gt3 into a power amp in 2002.

I got A LOT of comments :wat

Every 4th gig or so (after the set) there would be one dude enamored with the modeling approach, and how I was able to make such a horrible device sound good.

I think i might have been fostering future TGF members:banana
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First time I've gigged with the helix (with a 4x12 on stage and feeding the pa with an IR) the sound guy asked me "man, your helix sounds very good how do you do that?"

I was :idk .

Talking with him I've discovered he was a guitar player and had an helix and was struggling to make it sound good. Again me :idk "I don't know, I just load and amp and play"

I bet he didn't like his sound even with a tube amp and crossed a lot of bad sounding guitarists with orribile sounding presets.

Months later we did a contest with our band and I've heard so many bad sounding guitar tones coming from various modellers on stage that based on that experience one might say that modelers sound like shit. :wat

There's a lot of players out there unable to get a good sound out of their tools.

:idk
 
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JiveTurkey said:
Other spot I go to is tolerant. There is some GREAT sounding stuff out there so it would be foolish to dimiss it entirely.

I think really the paranoia of a sense of evangelical/modeling scientologist/"Have you read our pamphlet?" approach is what turns people off.

That being said; there's also the equivalent "I bought the Axsys in 1999 for $2700 so obviously I know what I'm talking about when we talk about modeling" thing that comes from the "Other side" that is equally as :wat :hmm
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*Knock knock*

"We're here to talk to you about amps."
 
As always, it's essential to differentiate.

I rotate between 70's LAB solid-state amps, all-tube Ampeg VT-22 and a Fender "Evil" Twin Amp, and a 100W Katana mk2, but I can get good sounds out of Helix Native or a Mooer Preamp just as well.

Once you know what you're looking for, and how different things are dialed in, it's really simple. ;)

PS: As long as there's sufficient clean headroom, since my approach is 100% "pedal platform".

*shrugs*
 
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