Line 6 Helix Stadium

[Frodebro]

Some of y'all act like you haven't spent a decade at TGP with Timbuk and it shows

The correct reaction to most of his posts should be

 

[JiveTurkey]

The correct reaction to most of his posts should be

Or

 

[BenIfin]

While I do have a Stadium XL on preorder, couldn't pass up 20% off, whether I keep it will largely come down to overall sound and feel quality. The UI looks like a nice refinement of the original Helix and the modeling improvements sound promising. But much of the Stadium is carried over from the original Helix good and bad. So while I would love a unit with a much better UI, I'm not sure I will be willing to give up Fractals massive high quality amp and effects library. Honestly I feel a little bit of deja vu from 10 years ago. Both companies have moved forward a lot, but they both still seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses. Not sure where I will end up this time round, but looking forward to giving the XL a go.

Given the wording of your posts and the pre-suppositions you are making ..... I'll go out on a limb and say (a) you'll not proceed with your pre-order or (b) try it and it will confirm what you already think now and return it within the return period or sell and get your $$ back given your %20 price discount.

Your comments "..... but much of the Stadium is carried over from the original Helix good and bad ..... " and "..... both companies have moved forward a lot, but they both still seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses ..... " tells me your mind is already made up ... in short ... no matter how good the Agoura Modeling is and no matter how quickly L6 "Agoura'ize" the whole Amp line, they will always be playing catchup to Fractal.

I cant come to any other conclusion from all the advance pre-conditions and pre-disclaimers you are making .... and that's all totally %1000 fine of course ..... its your $$ ...... I think we both know where you're going to end up and that your mind is already made up :) ... and the %20 discount gives you the insurance-cover-protection to dip your toe in the water you already know you really don't want to swim in :)

 

[mikah912]

When the original Helix was released its UI was a revelation. Large color screen, touch sensitive switches, scribble strips, etc. Fractal was still using grayscale screens and a UI straight out of the 90's. Fractal had then and still has a much larger library of amps and effects. I don't remember exactly when Fractal introduced quality of life improvements like scenes and channels, but I feel at lease scenes existed before Helix and that was a big improvement eventually copied by Line 6. Anyhow, I believe both have advanced on many fronts since 2015. I believe the III was released around 2018 with color screen, greatly improved UI, next gen modeling, etc. And during its life channels were perfected, new cab block introduced, along with many effect, amp, and other improvements.

IMO both have seen many advancements along the way and to me it feels a little like deja vu. Maybe not exactly the same, but similar in some ways. YMMV

Gotcha. If you're using 2015 as the comparison starting point, then your POV makes sense to me.

I'm comparing the progress of the start of each of the current generations - Helix in 2015 and Axe-FX III in 2018. Yes, many improvements happened with the current Fractal gen over its life span, but almost all of them were either new content or tweaks to existing content. The workflow is nigh identical. Yes, they added Dynacabs and Helix redid their cabs - pretty much a wash.

I absolutely agree that Helix copied Scenes (but gave them a bit more granularity with Snapshots. I'd love it if they had a similar take on Channels). But they've done a lot more QoL/UX/usability stuff even though Helix started from such a great point at launch.

Stuff like: User model defaults/favorites (essentially a non-exportable version of Fractal's block library but you can access it on the hardware), Command Center, Hot Keys, Pedal Edit mode, pedal position indicators, etc.

Obviously, Stadium is kicking all of that into overdrive while adding in all-new amp modeling engine while also adding a clone/capture engine to satisfy both virtual amp collectors and people who have particular rigs they own and need to take everywhere (like Pete Thorn is doing now with his Quad Cortex on the Five for Fighting tour).

 

[JiveTurkey]

Given the wording of your posts and the pre-suppositions you are making ..... I'll go out on a limb and say (a) you'll not proceed with your pre-order or (b) try it and it will confirm what you already think now and return it within the return period or sell and get your $$ back given your %20 price discount.

Your comments "..... but much of the Stadium is carried over from the original Helix good and bad ..... " and "..... both companies have moved forward a lot, but they both still seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses ..... " tells me your mind is already made up ... in short ... no matter how good the Agoura Modeling is and no matter how quickly L6 "Agoura'ize" the whole Amp line, they will always be playing catchup to Fractal.

I cant come to any other conclusion from all the advance pre-conditions and pre-disclaimers you are making .... and that's all totally %1000 fine of course ..... its your $$ ...... I think we both know where you're going to end up and that your mind is already made up :) ... and the %20 discount gives you the insurance-cover-protection to dip your toe in the water you already know you really don't want to swim in :)

Your Fractal Derangement Syndrome is staggeringly annoying.

 

[AZG]

Given the wording of your posts and the pre-suppositions you are making ..... I'll go out on a limb and say (a) you'll not proceed with your pre-order or (b) try it and it will confirm what you already think now and return it within the return period or sell and get your $$ back given your %20 price discount.

Your comments "..... but much of the Stadium is carried over from the original Helix good and bad ..... " and "..... both companies have moved forward a lot, but they both still seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses ..... " tells me your mind is already made up ... in short ... no matter how good the Agoura Modeling is and no matter how quickly L6 "Agoura'ize" the whole Amp line, they will always be playing catchup to Fractal.

I cant come to any other conclusion from all the advance pre-conditions and pre-disclaimers you are making .... and that's all totally %1000 fine of course ..... its your $$ ...... I think we both know where you're going to end up and that your mind is already made up :) ... and the %20 discount gives you the insurance-cover-protection to dip your toe in the water you already know you really don't want to swim it :)

Maybe you're right. There are definitely features and functions on the Fractal platform that I would have a hard time giving up and I do put a lot of value in the overall sound quality and feel I get from a platform. But I did switch to a Helix Floor for about a year and a half a couple of years into its lifespan once Line 6 introduced their version of Scenes and a few other highly requested features. I always liked the unit, but eventually got attracted back into the Fractal environment. So, I'm not sure my path is predetermined

 

[laxu]

Very possibly not anymore.

That would be ideal, but Fractal is still certainly ahead in the amount of amps (over 100 unique amps) and tweakability.

 

[BenIfin]

Your Fractal Derangement Syndrome is staggeringly annoying.

For real ????

I doubt Cliff and the team have minded the probably over AUS $12,000 I've spent on their gear [new] including my current FM3 - its fucking expensive down here - not to mention the 2nd hand units I've bought and tried - still fucking expensive.

Maybe read what AZG wrote and what my response was - i.m.h.o, he was pretty clearly conveying exactly what he will almost certainly end up doing - I just think there was a lot of "both-side's-ness" - but of course I could be wrong - his $$ his show. Thats all good.

Anyway .... on the bright side .... my "FDS" has at least given you the opportunity to keep your Post Total still keep ticking up.

 

[mikah912]

That would be ideal, but Fractal is still certainly ahead in the amount of amps (over 100 unique amps) and tweakability.

Facts, but Line 6 has never tried to compete on volume, and I suspect The commoditization of capturing/profiling is leveling that particular playing field for pretty much every other platform. Hell, it's pretty much life support for the Quad Cortex these days.

 

[BenIfin]

Maybe you're right. There are definitely features and functions on the Fractal platform that I would have a hard time giving up and I do put a lot of value in the overall sound quality and feel I get from a platform. But I did switch to a Helix Floor for about a year and a half a couple of years into its lifespan once Line 6 introduced their version of Scenes and a few other highly requested features. I always liked the unit, but eventually got attracted back into the Fractal environment. So, I'm not sure my path is predetermined

Like I said - I could well be / may well be definelty wrong .... either way, enjoy :)

 

[AZG]

Maybe read what AZG wrote and what my response was - i.m.h.o, he was pretty clearly conveying exactly what he will almost certainly end up doing - I just think the "both-side's-ness" was disingenuous - but of course I could be wrong - his $$ his show. Thats all good.

In reality, the biggest reason I may not keep the Stadium at this time is there are too many features that will not be available at launch. The QC left a bad taste in my mouth with an endless list of not available at launch items that never showed or took forever and years to get added. Granted, Line 6 has a MUCH better track record so I believe missing items will be released as promised in a more timely manor. But still I'm betting it will be a year or two before the vision is more fully fleshed out.

 

[mikah912]

In reality, the biggest reason I may not keep the Stadium at this time is there are too many features that will not be available at launch. The QC left a bad taste in my mouth with an endless list of not available at launch items that never showed or took forever and years to get added. Granted, Line 6 has a MUCH better track record so I believe missing items will be released as promised in a more timely manor. But still I'm betting it will be a year or two before the vision is more fully fleshed out.

Totally understandable and reasonable.

On that front, I appreciate how DI has been tamping down expectations on a number of fronts to get ahead of people with QC PTSD rather than mindlessly stoking hype.

 

[AZG]

Totally understandable and reasonable.

On that front, I appreciate how DI has been tamping down expectations on a number of fronts to get ahead of people with QC PTSD rather than mindlessly stoking hype.

I think everyone in the industry has learned a few lessons from the QC launch fiasco. At least the wise ones

 

[KingsXJJ]

I’d like a timely manor.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

if Helix Stadium gets to 83.4584% worthwhile-ness.... it's going to clean house. Absolutely clean house.

 

[AZG]

I’d like a timely manor.

Guess I should proof read better

 

[Dom Mcsweeney]

 

[dws2384]

Just my 2c

Purely from a sound and feel perspective in the last 2 years using my FM3, whatever Fractal has released has sounded and felt , i.m.h.o, very iterative in very minor jumps - putting aside all the sycophant comments on the FAS forum.

I would suggest an FM3 FW from 2 years ago will sound a little bit different to today but I would go so far as to say, in a blind test, no-one would reliably pick the difference.

I have no-idea what Fractal is planning, but a Company of their small size simply cannot get even remotely close to the feature set of Stadium for anything like that price .... and remember Agora isn't going to stand still either.

I also dont think that the "brains" at Fractal have more knowledge than the "brains" at L6 ..... this is the whole mythology that Fractal has and does rely on and subtly and sometimes not so subtly traded on.

With respect - that boat sailed a couple of years ago.

Hell, I spent about 2 weeks messing with an Ampero Stomp II 8 months ago and it can sound every bit as good as a Helix or FM3 - you could play "stadiums" [pardon the pun] with that unit and it will give you stunning tones.

The rusted on Fractal people will never move and have already been pre-emptivley shit-bagging Stadium - but they are a very vocal and loyal minority.

My guess is Agora / Stadium is definitely going to hurt Fractal in terms of their sales - plus they are also facing significant economic issues not of their making.

All just speccualtion of course.

I mostly agree here. The forum is always going wild for updates. Yes, I’m sure it sounds better than previous but I don’t think anyone would pass a blind test from 2 years ago either.

What keeps me returning to fractal are things that don’t get talked about as much. I feel like they need to market them better themselves as most people outside their owners likely don’t know they exist.

The ABCD channel system is absolutely brilliant. I love being able to have that many completey different options without needing to add additional blocks for a totally different amp, drive, reverb, etc.

The footswitch mapping is also brilliant. I can do more on 3 switches of the FM3 than I can on 10 of the QC. Yes, it involves more tapping (and I still think it should have 6 minimum) but it’s infinitely better to actually control what I want.

The effects are also amazing. This does get talked about lots but still overshadowed by the amp modelling all the time. Easily as good as any stand alone multi effects pedals.

There’s also lots of small things that are just done right. Preset levelling meters, always visible tuner, input and output meters on the device itself, global and preset performance parameters, etc. etc.

 

[Digital Igloo]

I absolutely agree that Helix copied Scenes (but gave them a bit more granularity with Snapshots.

I was there during the heartbreaking meetings where features kept getting gutted/deferred from Helix 1.0 (which echo similar meetings we've had all year r/e Stadium 1.0). Helix Floor's architecture was based on Stagescape M20d's, whose active development began around 2009 (but was likely designed and specced earlier than that); I joined in 2010 so I don't know for sure, but we showed off its scene recall at Winter NAMM 2012. Helix's snapshots were designed early on based on M20d's scenes but it was one of the big features that got pushed out past 1.0.

The only thing that changed from our initial snapshot design was A) whether all parameters were automatically assigned to snapshots [now they're not] and B) if not, the shortcut mechanism to assign them [push-turn the knob]. There's a decent chance we may have changed the name to "snapshots" because by then Fractal had released "scenes," but I can't remember.

At no point, however, did we look at Axe FX and think "oh yeah, we should totally copy that!" Hence, why snapshots' approach and implementation are very different (and in an amusing ironic twist, were nearly whole-hog lifted and renamed "scenes" by a couple other competitors).

But yes, Fractal released some sort of "preset within a preset" in a guitar processor before we were able to. Good on 'em.

 

[Orvillain]

That would be ideal, but Fractal is still certainly ahead in the amount of amps (over 100 unique amps) and tweakability.

Yeah I agree with that, it's just that personally I only use about 3 or 4 of them!