Line 6 Helix Stadium

[Orvillain]

I was there during the heartbreaking meetings where features kept getting gutted/deferred from Helix 1.0 (which echo similar meetings we've had all year r/e Stadium 1.0). Helix Floor's architecture was based on Stagescape M20d's, whose active development began around 2009 (but was likely designed and specced earlier than that); I joined in 2010 so I don't know for sure); we showed off its scene recall at Winter NAMM 2012. Helix's snapshots were designed early on based on M20d's scenes but it was one of the big features that got pushed out past 1.0.

The only thing that changed from our initial snapshot design was A) whether all parameters were automatically assigned to snapshots [now they're not] and B) if not, the shortcut mechanism to assign them [push-turn the knob]. There's a decent chance we may have changed the name to "snapshots" because by then Fractal had released "scenes," but I can't remember.

At no point, however, did we look at Axe FX and think "oh yeah, we should totally copy that!" Hence, why snapshots' approach and implementation are very different (and in an amusing ironic twist, were nearly whole-hog lifted and renamed "scenes" by a couple other competitors).

But yes, Fractal released some sort of "preset within a preset" in a guitar processor before we were able to. Good on 'em.

I stole the snapshots implementation for BFD3, almost entirely from Helix.

<ducks>

 

[Orvillain]

RE: Footswitching. It's definitely my particular use cases, but I find the Helix infinitely more flexible than the Axe3. Because I do a lot with midi switching of the amp and outboard pedals and the occasional synth and things like that, which the Axe3 is just remarkably under-developed for, quite honestly.

 

[Frodebro]

I was there during the heartbreaking meetings where features kept getting gutted/deferred from Helix 1.0 (which echo similar meetings we've had all year r/e Stadium 1.0). Helix Floor's architecture was based on Stagescape M20d's, whose active development began around 2009 (but was likely designed and specced earlier than that); I joined in 2010 so I don't know for sure); we showed off its scene recall at Winter NAMM 2012. Helix's snapshots were designed early on based on M20d's scenes but it was one of the big features that got pushed out past 1.0.

The only thing that changed from our initial snapshot design was A) whether all parameters were automatically assigned to snapshots [now they're not] and B) if not, the shortcut mechanism to assign them [push-turn the knob]. There's a decent chance we may have changed the name to "snapshots" because by then Fractal had released "scenes," but I can't remember.

At no point, however, did we look at Axe FX and think "oh yeah, we should totally copy that!" Hence, why snapshots' approach and implementation are very different (and in an amusing ironic twist, were nearly whole-hog lifted and renamed "scenes" by a couple other competitors).

But yes, Fractal released some sort of "preset within a preset" in a guitar processor before we were able to. Good on 'em.

Look at it from the perspective of the auto industry: Somebody was first with headlights, somebody was first with windshield wipers, somebody was first with air conditioning. At the time, those were features exclusive to those brands. But now they’re all standard equipment and nobody knows (or cares) who introduced them.

It’s inevitable that certain things also become “standard equipment” in modelers, and most people don’t care who came up with them first as long as the unit they’re interested in has that particular feature.

 

[Frodebro]

RE: Footswitching. It's definitely my particular use cases, but I find the Helix infinitely more flexible than the Axe3. Because I do a lot with midi switching of the amp and outboard pedals and the occasional synth and things like that, which the Axe3 is just remarkably under-developed for, quite honestly.

That makes perfect sense. I don’t use a ton of MIDI, mostly channel switching on tube amps, so I don’t need anything more than basic PC commands on a single MIDI channel. But the tap/hold function and layouts make Fractal far better suited for my own needs.

 

[Digital Igloo]

Look at it from the perspective of the auto industry: Somebody was first with headlights, somebody was first with windshield wipers, somebody was first with air conditioning. At the time, those were features exclusive to those brands. But now they’re all standard equipment and nobody knows (or cares) who introduced them.

It’s inevitable that certain things also become “standard equipment” in modelers, and most people don’t care who came up with them first as long as the unit they’re interested in has that particular feature.

I mean... I care, at least when someone falsely believes or claims I and/our design team copied another company.

 

[Mikael Dez]

I mean... I care, at least when someone falsely believes or claims I and/our design team copied another company.

I don’t blame you in the least

 

[Frodebro]

I mean... I care, at least when someone falsely believes or claims I and/our design team copied another company.

The tricky part is sometimes it's hard to tell if malice is the underlying motivation for the nitpicking.

 

[Mikael Dez]

Malice or not, if someone accused me of copying some other professional in my line of work I would likely care, and defend myself over it - especially if I was part of a team spearheading the forward development of an internationally renowned company

 

[Mikael Dez]

Given the wording of your posts and the pre-suppositions you are making ..... I'll go out on a limb and say (a) you'll not proceed with your pre-order or (b) try it and it will confirm what you already think now and return it within the return period or sell and get your $$ back given your %20 price discount.

Your comments "..... but much of the Stadium is carried over from the original Helix good and bad ..... " and "..... both companies have moved forward a lot, but they both still seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses ..... " tells me your mind is already made up ... in short ... no matter how good the Agoura Modeling is and no matter how quickly L6 "Agoura'ize" the whole Amp line, they will always be playing catchup to Fractal.

I cant come to any other conclusion from all the advance pre-conditions and pre-disclaimers you are making .... and that's all totally %1000 fine of course ..... it’s your $$ ...... I think we both know where you're going to end up and that your mind is already made up :) ... and the %20 discount gives you the insurance-cover-protection to dip your toe in the water you already know you really don't want to swim in :)

Why do old people use so many “……” when they’re typing lol, that was not taught in any school

 

[Mongillo19]

Why do old people use so many “……” when they’re typing lol, that was not taught in any school

You missed the color coded Ben era

 

[Dom Mcsweeney]

 

[mikah912]

I mean... I care, at least when someone falsely believes or claims I and/our design team copied another company.

My bad for the assumption, but I did note that the implementation is different/more granular.

I think y'all have earned a reputation for always taking a different tact even when you incorporate features others have done first. That's exactly what excites me about the potential of Proxy. I KNOW it's going to be more than just me-too amp cloning.

 

[paisleywookiee]

That would be ideal, but Fractal is still certainly ahead in the amount of amps (over 100 unique amps) and tweakability.

Eh, I’d also argue that there’s an enormous amount of needless overlap on the Fractal. Not Cliff’s fault, I’m sure it’s absolutely accurate. It’s just that the amps themselves aren’t so insanely different that you need so many permutations.

I could easily get things done on either the Helix or Fractal. And neither of them has a goddamn Badlander.

 

[timbuck3]

Yeah when it arrives a lot of the competition does not have an actually competing product. Let's take a look at the major players:

• Quad Cortex. Probably the closest competitor. But will not offer the same breadth of models, routing possibilities, anything like Focus view, Showcase features, footswitch programmability etc. On the plus side it is more compact, and supports captures already.
• Fractal Audio. Way, way behind on UI. Ahead in modeling and amount of models in each category. Possibly ahead in footswitch functionality.
• Fender Tone Master Pro. Hasn't moved forward that much since release. Way behind on the number of fx, routing, footswitching capabilities etc.
• Boss GT-1000/GX-100. Not even close.
• Kemper MK2. Not even close.
• Hotone Ampero 2. It's basically a Helix/QC copy in many ways, so the only plus is the smaller size and pricing.

That said, it heavily looks like Line6 has a pretty lengthy roadmap of features big and small that will happen only after release. I'm on the fence if I want to buy the smaller Stadium for Christmas or wait to see where it goes next year.

But realistically the two products I'm interested in are the HX Stadium and the BluGuitar Amp X. While I am certain the HX will be superior in so many ways to the BluGuitar...I still kinda want to see how it is because I genuinely enjoy both Amp 1 models so much, and have been playing traditional amp rigs a lot more lately.

Fractal is ahead in effect quality and diversity from what I have seen

 

[paisleywookiee]

RE: Footswitching. It's definitely my particular use cases, but I find the Helix infinitely more flexible than the Axe3. Because I do a lot with midi switching of the amp and outboard pedals and the occasional synth and things like that, which the Axe3 is just remarkably under-developed for, quite honestly.

I programmed an EVH3/Helix/H90 rig, and holy balls was it a pain, but the Helix part was probably the easiest part of it.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Fractal is ahead in effect quality and diversity from what I have seen

Not in diversity, no.

 

[timbuck3]

Just my 2c

Purely from a sound and feel perspective in the last 2 years using my FM3, whatever Fractal has released has sounded and felt , i.m.h.o, very iterative in very minor jumps - putting aside all the sycophant comments on the FAS forum.

I would suggest an FM3 FW from 2 years ago will sound a little bit different to today but I would go so far as to say, in a blind test, no-one would reliably pick the difference.

I have no-idea what Fractal is planning, but a Company of their small size simply cannot get even remotely close to the feature set of Stadium for anything like that price .... and remember Agora isn't going to stand still either.

I also dont think that the "brains" at Fractal have more knowledge than the "brains" at L6 ..... this is the whole mythology that Fractal has and does rely on and subtly and sometimes not so subtly traded on.

With respect - that boat sailed a couple of years ago.

Hell, I spent about 2 weeks messing with an Ampero Stomp II 8 months ago and it can sound every bit as good as a Helix or FM3 - you could play "stadiums" [pardon the pun] with that unit and it will give you stunning tones.

The rusted on Fractal people will never move and have already been pre-emptivley shit-bagging Stadium - but they are a very vocal and loyal minority.

My guess is Agora / Stadium is definitely going to hurt Fractal in terms of their sales - plus they are also facing significant economic issues not of their making.

All just speccualtion of course.

But if fractal is so small how is it they exceed in amount of ampmodrls and effects,?

 

[timbuck3]

Without question the UI is Fractals biggest weakness and if they continue to ignore it I believe it will hurt them in the long run. I don't see them ever competing with Line 6 for UI and I don't think they need to. But they do need something more competitive again. Nevertheless, as I said before I can't stop feeling deja vu from with the last Helix release. Seems both companies are in similar places to each other, just ten years further down the road.

What’s odd is even hr will less r&d in making models and effects has the smarts to have a decent gui

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

Fractal is ahead in effect quality and diversity from what I have seen

Seen or played and heard?

SOME Fractal effects are of “better” quality than the competition and some aren’t. I feel like mod, delay and reverb on fractal are more to my liking than Helix but it’s more like pedals vs rack effects. I do think the Helix drives are better. Diversity? Clearly Helix wins that one.

 

[Mikael Dez]

What’s odd is even hr will less r&d in making models and effects has the smarts to have a decent gui

Sound > GUI, both being equal enough that it’s splitting hairs, GUI wins in my opinion. Idk if the Fractal line GUI is so terrible other than the VP4 I have but if it isn’t then I don’t see why people hate it so much. VP4 took me like 15 minutes to figure out