Line 6 Helix Stadium

but will it match or overtake the competition?
Honestly, it doesn't even need to. If you were to put numbers on it... let's put Kemper at 10% worthwhile-ness... and let's put Fractal at 90% worthwhileness... Helix regular at 70% .... if Helix Stadium gets to 83.4584% worthwhile-ness.... it's going to clean house. Absolutely clean house.
 
friends fail GIF
 
While I do have a Stadium XL on preorder, couldn't pass up 20% off, whether I keep it will largely come down to overall sound and feel quality. The UI looks like a nice refinement of the original Helix and the modeling improvements sound promising. But much of the Stadium is carried over from the original Helix good and bad. So while I would love a unit with a much better UI, I'm not sure I will be willing to give up Fractals massive high quality amp and effects library. Honestly I feel a little bit of deja vu from 10 years ago. Both companies have moved forward a lot, but they both still seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses. Not sure where I will end up this time round, but looking forward to giving the XL a go.

The precise reason I made a Stadium XL preorder as soon as the Jun 11th prezzie ended was that Line 6 has been making significant forward progress on sound quality and UX/quality of life/usability since the launch of the Helix in 2015. One Helix SKU or another has remained at the heart of my studio since then. I consider it a non-negotiable.

On the other side of the aisle, I've had two FM3s and currently rock an FM9. While there have been wonderful engine improvements and amp/FX added in that time, the UX/usability/QoL front has been pindrop quiet with the exception of the Dynacabs - which didn't really solve any problems due to the wealth of IRs it came with at launch. Even when Stadium launched, Cliff's kneejerk reaction was to brag about the supercomputer-esque processing power of the next gen....not ANY user experience lessons learned or intent to revamp usability. Suggestion after suggestion to optimize functions just using current gen hardware buttons lies ignored in their Wish List forums, while they cross off things like adding a Stealth or Supro Black Magik amp.

So viewed through that lens, I disagree that both companies "still seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses". Line 6 decided to try to address all of theirs in one fell swoop, while Fractal has largely taken a "We good" stance.

And make no mistake - The current Fractal hardware is good. It's great, even.

But it requires sacrifices, and I'm not seeing anything I'd be sacrificing with Stadium XL, while I'd be gaining tons of additional capabilities on top.
 
And make no mistake - The current Fractal hardware is good. It's great, even.
In 4cm with an amp, the Axe3 is definitely the leader when it comes to pure noise-floor, latency, and signal quality measurements. Helix Floor comes 2nd place, and nothing else really comes close. But I hope Stadium will be the new number 1, which is why I pre-ordered.
 
In 4cm with an amp, the Axe3 is definitely the leader when it comes to pure noise-floor, latency, and signal quality measurements. Helix Floor comes 2nd place, and nothing else really comes close. But I hope Stadium will be the new number 1, which is why I pre-ordered.

I imagine that the Boss GT-1000 would strongly disagree.
 
I strongly suspect you are wrong.
Well I strongly suspect you are wrong - I think you are misremembering what was said in the introduction videos. I just went back, he said:


so we can sample accurately capture the interaction between signal and power supply.
<goes on, then> Double precision tone stacks. Interblock communications so cabs block can communicate back to the amp block for dynamic speaker impedance curves.
So yeah I'm sticking with "the power amp model loads a SIC curve, based on what cabinet you have selected"


It’s not just about the amp “loading” the right static impedance curve when you switch cabs.
I mean we are in speculation land - but why wouldn't it be?

Sample-accurate communication strongly implies that the amp and cab blocks are exchanging data on a per-sample basis during processing, not just referencing a fixed curve.
I assume you are hinting at non-linear speaker modeling aspects? I mean there's thermal effects that could affect the impedance curve but that's certainly not changing in the tens of microseconds (sample accuracy) and if you have a power amp model, being solved by an ODE, it would not make sense to split this processing/speaker model into a separate block.

Even if the amp modeling itself is running with its own internal solver at an oversampled rate, in a traditional block-based DSP chain that solver only sees the load update once per buffer - say, every 64 samples. This results in a coarsening of the data, and thus less precision.
Same point as above - it'd be weird for the power amp model to be split up like that. But again, we are in speculation land.

If Agoura eliminates that buffer-level latency, so the solver is aware of the instantaneous state of the cab/impedance at every single sample.
Again it wouldn't make sense to split that up in separate blocks if that was the case. But in a more general note, what exactly is changing in tens of microseconds?
 
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The precise reason I made a Stadium XL preorder as soon as the Jun 11th prezzie ended was that Line 6 has been making significant forward progress on sound quality and UX/quality of life/usability since the launch of the Helix in 2015. One Helix SKU or another has remained at the heart of my studio since then. I consider it a non-negotiable.

On the other side of the aisle, I've had two FM3s and currently rock an FM9. While there have been wonderful engine improvements and amp/FX added in that time, the UX/usability/QoL front has been pindrop quiet with the exception of the Dynacabs - which didn't really solve any problems due to the wealth of IRs it came with at launch. Even when Stadium launched, Cliff's kneejerk reaction was to brag about the supercomputer-esque processing power of the next gen....not ANY user experience lessons learned or intent to revamp usability. Suggestion after suggestion to optimize functions just using current gen hardware buttons lies ignored in their Wish List forums, while they cross off things like adding a Stealth or Supro Black Magik amp.

So viewed through that lens, I disagree that both companies "still seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses". Line 6 decided to try to address all of theirs in one fell swoop, while Fractal has largely taken a "We good" stance.

And make no mistake - The current Fractal hardware is good. It's great, even.

But it requires sacrifices, and I'm not seeing anything I'd be sacrificing with Stadium XL, while I'd be gaining tons of additional capabilities on top.
Without question the UI is Fractals biggest weakness and if they continue to ignore it I believe it will hurt them in the long run. I don't see them ever competing with Line 6 for UI and I don't think they need to. But they do need something more competitive again. Nevertheless, as I said before I can't stop feeling deja vu from with the last Helix release. Seems both companies are in similar places to each other, just ten years further down the road.
 
Without question the UI is Fractals biggest weakness and if they continue to ignore it I believe it will hurt them in the long run. I don't see them ever competing with Line 6 for UI and I don't think they need to. But they do need something more competitive again. Nevertheless, as I said before I can't stop feeling deja vu from with the last Helix release. Seems both companies are in similar places to each other, just ten years further down the road.

Say more on feeling deja vu with the 2015 release of Helix Floor?

Cabs are different. Focus View, Favorites and folders make it more easy than ever to dial in sounds and have everything instantly recallable. Factory presets have notes, snapshots and a sample clip to demystify them instead of an obscure title and one setting with no context whatsoever. Way more amp tones and effects are available from the comparatively meager selection Helix had at launch.

Showcase and Proxy will be enabled not too long after launch. Like....how are they similar?
 
Where did he say that? And yes I do, more than you care to know.
The power supply in a tube amp isn't a fixed voltage source. It sags, recovers, and modulates in response to your playing; and also your environment. For example in the UK, the mains voltage is 230volts, but we quite often will get more. I've been in my amp techs workshop where he's measured 249 before. That is quite a difference! It varies throughout the day.

Now given that, we know that an amps power supply is not a fixed voltage in the real world. This means an accurate model of it would not be a fixed floating point source either. Rather, you'd model the sag and voltage and other characteristics. DSP guys already know this, which is why amp modelling has come so far in the last 15 or so years. They've built systems to capture these behaviours.

Now. In a DSP system where resources are finite, you have to manage your processing, optimize code, and perhaps even make compromises. For example, instead of running a per-sample tanh function, which can get expensive, you can instead have a look-up table that you index instead. This is far less costly.

You may also run internal oversampling only where it matters. You may also share or reuse state variables between blocks, so that models are interactive without burning CPU.

But if you have an engine and DSP platform where you have more resources to work with, you can go further. You can handle sample-accurate communication, which is exactly what Eric means when he says:
so we can sample accurately capture the interaction between signal and power supply.

Whether it is between the signal and power supply, or the amp and cab block, is kind of irrelevant to my overarching point.

My overarching point is that sample-accurate is a term in DSP that has a specific implication. It isn't just a buzzword, it has a specific meaning:that data is exchanged and processed on a per-sample basis, not in blocks. In other words, there's no buffer-level latency between one part of the model or another.

That's a massive deal for accuracy. It removes the coarsening effect of block-based updates, where interactions only sync every n samples.

With sample accurate processing, you get tight, real-time feedback loops that make the model feel and response more like actual hardware.

My hunch is that Fractal have been doing this for years already, and that Helix probably wasn't. Until soon ;)
 
I imagine that the Boss GT-1000 would strongly disagree.

I use one (not the amp modeling, mind you - I'm not completely out of taste yet) and latency is amazing. But according to the FAS Wiki, the Axe FX III is now down to 2ms, amp block (which adds a bit) included. Using the loop might maybe add another 1.5ms. 3.5ms in total is quite nice.

I'm still wondering (even with their amp modeling being sub-par) how Boss manages to keep things below 1ms, though. Even weirder that the GX-100 goes as low, even if it's running at 48kHz (the GT-1000 is running at 96kHz internally, from all I know).
 
Say more on feeling deja vu with the 2015 release of Helix Floor?

Cabs are different. Focus View, Favorites and folders make it more easy than ever to dial in sounds and have everything instantly recallable. Factory presets have notes, snapshots and a sample clip to demystify them instead of an obscure title and one setting with no context whatsoever. Way more amp tones and effects are available from the comparatively meager selection Helix had at launch.

Showcase and Proxy will be enabled not too long after launch. Like....how are they similar?
When the original Helix was released its UI was a revelation. Large color screen, touch sensitive switches, scribble strips, etc. Fractal was still using grayscale screens and a UI straight out of the 90's. Fractal had then and still has a much larger library of amps and effects. I don't remember exactly when Fractal introduced quality of life improvements like scenes and channels, but I feel at least scenes existed before Helix and that was a big improvement eventually copied by Line 6. Anyhow, I believe both have advanced on many fronts since 2015. I believe the III was released around 2018 with color screen, greatly improved UI, next gen modeling, etc. And during its life channels were perfected, new cab block introduced, along with many effect, amp, and other improvements.

IMO both have seen many advancements along the way and to me it feels a little like deja vu. Maybe not exactly the same, but similar in some ways. YMMV
 
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