Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[GTR37]

Isn't that an 80's car made by Ford?

Pinto ?? that was best know for blowing up at lights

 

[Sascha Franck]

Edit: I just went back and listened to be sure I wasn't nuts. Guys (or gals)... I can't tell the difference. So I plugged in again and randomly switched between units via A/B switcher, making sure I didn't look. Again, could not hear OR feel a difference. I got it wrong more than half the time when I guessed. And I'm the one playing it. Maybe my hearing really is shot.

I think your examples are well within the margin of production error of, say, a cap. Or a slightly different pot value. Or an aging tube.
And all that while completely ignoring that you didn't actually reamp things (which, if you asked me, is absolutely fine).
In case people can't live with such small differences, I dunno.
There's a lot of bigger fish to fry than that.

Anyhow, thanks for your examples.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Well I’m glad we’re all getting along here.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

And all that while completely ignoring that you didn't actually reamp things

That is the biggest difference that you'll hear in those passes. I use Dunlop Flow picks. You hit at a different angle and you get a different tonality. Or I hit harder or softer. It really would be interesting to do the re-amping but that was not the point of the exercise. It was "let's see how close we can get by setting everything the same".

 

[Orvillain]

Whatever man.

Look, you can be all po-faced and faux-offended as much as you want. I don't care.

I stand behind my initial assertion: there are clear differences between those A/B's Karl posted. There were clear differences between the Kemper shootouts that @Deadpan posted a while back too.

It isn't bad to notice these things, and to be able to quantify them. Would I care in a mix? Possibly not. Would I care in a live scenario? Definitely not.

In a critical listening session where we're trying to judge for "realism" and valve amp "accuracy" ?? Hell yeah I'm going to focus upon those differences. Because that's how the last 2% is achieved.

Or else, why even bother inventing Agoura in the first place? Why would Cliff even bother to make his amp modelling better after releasing the Axe FX Standard?? Why aren't we all just using Pod 2.0's?? Or better yet, Behringturd V-Amp's ???

You simply cannot expect me to buy what you're selling. I don't buy it. I have a viewpoint. It is well informed by both experience and knowledge. I am not just shooting from the hip. I bought a Stadium, laid down almost £2000 for it, and I'm observing that there is a problem with the high-frequency content. It just isn't as present and observable as it is with other modelling platforms, but more crucially than that, real valve amps.

And I don't want to have to say that. Because I spent a fucking huge chunk of coin on it. But... I can't lie to myself. I think there's an issue. Just as I think there is an issue with Kemper accuracy.

PS: People like me are the reason you even saw improvements to ToneX, Quad Cortex, and others. You're welcome.

 

[Sascha Franck]

It was "let's see how close we can get by setting everything the same".

I know. As said, all fine with me.
And anyhow, even with this "method", if there were such obvious differences as some people claim there are, those would be clearly identifyable in your clips. Which they aren't.

At this point, to make educated statements about whatever modeling quality, one would have to have an option to directly A/B the very same amp that was modeled (as in the very same physical amp they measured at L6 or FAS) and the modeler in question.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

You said you can't tell which is which and that should tell you something about it.

Indeed. They aren’t big differences, and when comparing against different modellers, at equal value settings, there’s a lot of variables at play.

But the Agoura models do seem to be routinely darker and I think there’s enough examples of this for it to be an objective statement (rather than opinion), because they’ve routinely shown this characteristic. It doesn’t really matter about what my guesses were either - my comments about the top end being less fizzy and more filtered were describing the differences without knowing which is which. It’s not just tolerances or unit variation because it’s across the board. I think that’s why it’s interesting (to me at least).

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

Agoura models do seem to be routinely darker

I can't remember, do you have a Stadium? I do not find Agoura's amp models to be any darker, especially through the same IR. Maybe folks are comparing cabs?

 

[paisleywookiee]

I think the Agoura IIC+ sounds a little smoother/polished than the Fractal does, whether you like that or dislike it is up to you. Personally I’m more concerned with whether I can make it work well for me. Which in both cases, it’s a moo point. They’re both great. It’s more about the rest of the package.

 

[sashimi]

If there isn’t enough treble couldn’t you just… turn up the treble? These aren’t profiles or static captures, they have tone knobs for a reason, right?

If there was a huge difference that couldn’t be compensated for by tweaking the tone knobs, sure, but the difference between the two is microscopic.

 

[Mooselake]

I should have saved the reveal for the new year because now that you know which is which, the posts that confirm your bias toward one platform or another will come out.

This should teach me never to do this again.

Edit: I just went back and listened to be sure I wasn't nuts. Guys (or gals)... I can't tell the difference. So I plugged in again and randomly switched between units via A/B switcher, making sure I didn't look. Again, could not hear OR feel a difference. I got it wrong more than half the time when I guessed. And I'm the one playing it. Maybe my hearing really is shot.


It's not.

If yours is shot, mine is shot too. I didn't hear anything to set A apart from B in those clips. I listened to them three separate times. I can't hear dog whistles either, so if there's something bordering on ultrasonic going on, I might be too old to hear it.

 

[Orvillain]

I can't remember, do you have a Stadium? I do not find Agoura's amp models to be any darker, especially through the same IR. Maybe folks are comparing cabs?

They definitely are dude. I've compared 5150III's on Fractal to Stadium, I've compared the 2203's, Revv Generators, Bogner XTC, the IIC+ ... crucially, I've also compared the 2203 to my real world JVMJS (I know it isn't exactly a 2203) and also compared the IIC+ to my Mark V.

I am noticing a trend.

On most real valve amps, you crank the presence and the mids and treble, and it actually HURTS to listen to. That is true on Fractal too. But it isn't true on Stadium.

 

[Sascha Franck]

f there isn’t enough treble couldn’t you just… turn up the treble?

Won't be authentic enough for true connaisseurs of toan.

 

[HotRats]

I don't own a Stadium and I can't speak for the Agoura models in general, meaning you might be right about the new line6 modelling on other amps or even this amp with different settings.

But come on, there is no distinct difference that jumps out in those clips. That's an hyperbole.

There is a difference, a small one, that in the context of those clips, the only one we can judge, is really irrelevant.

Above is what I wrote to you.

You should really review your reading skills and learn to behave.

Look, you can be all po-faced and faux-offended as much as you want. I don't care.

I stand behind my initial assertion: there are clear differences between those A/B's Karl posted. There were clear differences between the Kemper shootouts that @Deadpan posted a while back too.

It isn't bad to notice these things, and to be able to quantify them. Would I care in a mix? Possibly not. Would I care in a live scenario? Definitely not.

In a critical listening session where we're trying to judge for "realism" and valve amp "accuracy" ?? Hell yeah I'm going to focus upon those differences. Because that's how the last 2% is achieved.

Or else, why even bother inventing Agoura in the first place? Why would Cliff even bother to make his amp modelling better after releasing the Axe FX Standard?? Why aren't we all just using Pod 2.0's?? Or better yet, Behringturd V-Amp's ???

You simply cannot expect me to buy what you're selling. I don't buy it. I have a viewpoint. It is well informed by both experience and knowledge. I am not just shooting from the hip. I bought a Stadium, laid down almost £2000 for it, and I'm observing that there is a problem with the high-frequency content. It just isn't as present and observable as it is with other modelling platforms, but more crucially than that, real valve amps.

And I don't want to have to say that. Because I spent a fucking huge chunk of coin on it. But... I can't lie to myself. I think there's an issue. Just as I think there is an issue with Kemper accuracy.

Whatever

PS: People like me are the reason you even saw improvements to ToneX, Quad Cortex, and others. You're welcome.

Good lord.

 

[HotRats]

Indeed. They aren’t big differences, and when comparing against different modellers, at equal value settings, there’s a lot of variables at play.

But the Agoura models do seem to be routinely darker and I think there’s enough examples of this for it to be an objective statement (rather than opinion), because they’ve routinely shown this characteristic. It doesn’t really matter about what my guesses were either - my comments about the top end being less fizzy and more filtered were describing the differences without knowing which is which. It’s not just tolerances or unit variation because it’s across the board. I think that’s why it’s interesting (to me at least).

See my original post.

I've made a comment about a clip not the entire Agoura modelling.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I can't remember, do you have a Stadium? I do not find Agoura's amp models to be any darker, especially through the same IR. Maybe folks are comparing cabs?

I don’t have one, but it’s quite probable I’ll pick up a Stadium-generation product when other models come out. The Stadium and XL aren’t really a format that works for me.

No - It’s not a cab/IR thing.

Your soundcloud example of the IIC+ clearly shows less top end fizz/sizzle. It’s the same kinds of differences I heard in Sterlacci, Sadites and @fiftyshadesofslay ’s examples of the 2203 against the Helix legacy model, and also with the examples that @Orvillain has sent me since he bought his. Whether or not it affects someone’s use is absolutely debatable but there being a difference is not. And so far, I haven’t seen any examples of Agoura not being darker/more filtered than anything else.

 

[Orvillain]

Above is what I wrote to you.

You should really review your reading skills and learn to behave.

Well:

there is no distinct difference

This is incorrect, and I have nothing to review, and no behaviour to change.

MUH WHATEVERSZ!!!!!

 

[sashimi]

Maybe Line 6 can just make the treble sliders go to 11

 

[ian_dissonance]

Wait, I thought we only used “golden ears” for people who publicly fail blind tests? But please, continue. This shit is hilarious.

 

[Orvillain]

Maybe Line 6 can just make the treble sliders go to 11

That won't help if the cause is that their anti-aliasing filters are cutting too many high frequencies in their new Agoura circuit topologies - for example.

Problem is.... you change that, and you literally change everyone's presets, and everyone will complain because they're used to the way it sounds. Cliff experiences this all the time too. He improves something, and people get annoyed because their sounds changed.

This should've been caught by an alpha tester IMHO. But the problem you have is, lots of modelling people haven't used real amplifiers for decades at this point. They've forgotten what they're supposed to sound like.