Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[Mooselake]

I finally took a few minutes to mess around with Hype and ZPrePost.

I was using my trusty everyday 2203MV ~ generic 70s/80s rock preset. I found the Hype to be a nice way get a bit of a different character in the sound, but it wasn't necessary to get a "good" sound. Seemed like a great knob in the case where you're 90% there with something and just looking for a little bit of something to get it right there where you want it. For the mood I was in last night and what I was doing, I put it back to zero in the end, but if I was looking for something slightly more aggressive I'd have left it near the midpoint.

The impedance adjustment was different. I adjusted it across the entire range and didn't notice much of anything. Maybe the 2203MV model is just one that's not sensitive to that parameter? In my patch I had a low mix chorus, dash of plate and the dynamic ambience at the end. Maybe those effects mask the Z feedback point? My monitor system isn't super hi fi--I just run the 1/4" line out to the aux input of my old THR 10c as a poor man's FRFR. I'll have to revisit that with a different amp model and maybe switch to headphones.

Next up when I get a chance will be playing with focus view.

Anyone know what Stadium does for impedance when you use dual cabs? I'm assuming they just compute a new impedance curve that accounts for two the two Z's in parallel, but I'm not sure.

 

[Orvillain]

Here's a clip of what you get when you open up the dampening parameter, in order to allow the reverbs to be a bit brighter and more aggressive.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

1st is Dynamic Plate.
2nd is Heliosphere but focused on using it as a reverb - there is no dampening parameter.
3rd is Dynamic Hall.
4th is Dynamic Hall with dampening wide open.
5th is Dynamic Hall with dampening wide open and motion turned off.
6th is Dynamic Hall with motion turned up full.
7th is Dynamic Hall with motion at 2.0.

My problems with Dynamic Hall stem from the metallicness when trying to raise the dampening, and the unrealistic nature of the motion control.

Here's a clip of the Boss RV5 'Modulate' mode to compare:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Differences I note:

- RV5 Modulate has a much more subtle 'motion' pattern to its modulation. It doesn't sound rhythmic or "granular" like the Dynamic Hall one does. The modulation doesn't detract from the overall impression of space.
- The balance between dry and wet seems a bit more equal to my ears, with the overall level being well maintained.
- Late reflections seem to kick in, in a very natural way. In Dynamic Hall they kind of just bloom out over quite a long time.
- The RV5 can achieve brightness without going grainy.

 

[Orvillain]

The impedance adjustment was different. I adjusted it across the entire range and didn't notice much of anything. Maybe the 2203MV model is just one that's not sensitive to that parameter? In my patch I had a low mix chorus, dash of plate and the dynamic ambience at the end. Maybe those effects mask the Z feedback point? My monitor system isn't super hi fi--I just run the 1/4" line out to the aux input of my old THR 10c as a poor man's FRFR. I'll have to revisit that with a different amp model and maybe switch to headphones.

Oh really? I found it extremely obvious, and my favourite setting was 100% post. Sounds much more aggressive and 'high gain' to me like that. I also like hype around 2-3.

 

[Orvillain]

I think we tend to lean towards warmer less harsh tones, and we also favour a more immediate response - all things that I think would be more preferable in Stadium so I absolutely understand why so many people would prefer it.

I quite often will lean towards a bright and aggressive sound, but one that is clear and doesn't have too much mush in that high region - which can get extremely messsy when you've got a shit ton of aliasing from nonlinear stages. I think OG Helix was quite good in this respect, but not perfect, and not as good as Fractal. I've not checked Stadium yet.

 

[EOengineer]

The top end hash @MirrorProfiles mentions is Helix’s “tell” from an accuracy perspective. It was more noticeable in earlier firmware, got significantly better later, but gets worse with additional gain stages and is still there in Hx. I hear it in palm mutes and on the edges of single notes, sitting on top of chords. I broke up with Hx amp modeling because I couldn’t get the brighter tones I like without the hash.

I don’t find Agoura darker. I do notice more girth and bloom in notes and chords, more chunk in the lows and low mids, but I also notice that I can push the mids and top end and achieve bright tones with a solidity that I could NEVER seem to find in hours of tweaking parameters in Hx. It’s just there now and it has dynamics that feel like an amp.

 

[ccc118]

Ok, went back and played.

This problem does not reveal itself playing through headphones but it very clearly noticeable playing through a guitar cab. To put it simply - WHERE'S ALL THE HIGH END??

All those high end frequencies that give a Marshall it's core character are neutered. It's just all smothered out. Why is this the case?

The Helix Plexi sounds way better, to me, simply by virtue of the fact that critical high-end frequencies are present and accounted for - this in large part is what gives modeling its authenticity. Need to investigate more.

I'm still learning how to record etc. but I did this using my phone camera. It's basically my in-room sound of the Helix through 2 guitar cabs. Unfortunately, google photos compression is massive, and a lot of the tone is neutered from what I'm hearing in the room - but you can still get a sense.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

The first part is Agoura Brit Plexi Jumped and the 2nd amp is Helix Brit Plexi Jumped. Amp is fully cranked - not how I typically play but that's what I happened to dial up. There's just a tiny amount of reverb - nothing else in signal chain. Hopefully you can hear what I'm hearing.

Have you tried running it just into the bright channel? If it's too dark, you might be running the normal channel too high. I normally don't like jumpering because it tends to get muddy. It could be counterproductive in this case.

After spending a day with the Stadium, I'm loving the Agoura plexi. I like it even more than the Fractal plexis. When comparing to the original Helix version, I didn't like the original as much because of the extra high end and had to run the presence lower. It still sounds great though. It's all just personal preference. It might just be a better match for your guitars. If you still prefer using the original models, then there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[DanRad]

Oh my...
That's pretty bad. Especially as the rather less than great visibility has defenitely been a known issue (and not just for me).

Well, just my 2 cents, but the Stadium LEDs look noticeably brighter to me with the units side by side, at least sitting in a room. Getting it out in the sun will be the real test, of course.

 

[HotRats]

I wouldn't take his word for that. Plenty of people like and want that high-end.

That's true but the OG Helix quality of high end content (and even low end) sounds less natural than the Agoura models.
Sounds a bit hyped to my ears.

Listen to the great tones johan segeborn gets form his real Plexis. They are brighter than what's heard it the example posted by our friend here on TGP but there's no trace of hyped high or low end at all.

If you need to make a recorded amp (or any other source) brighter you can use an eq and if it's well recoded you won't get unpleasant harshness.

I feel like working with an Agoura amp will be easier than with it's OG Helix counterpart.

I have no stadium so these are opinions based on YouTube recordings.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

RV5 Modulate has a much more subtle 'motion' pattern to its modulation. It doesn't sound rhythmic or "granular" like the Dynamic Hall one does.

Could one even characterize the Dynamic Hall's motion as, dare I say, lumpy?

 

[Orvillain]

Could one even characterize the Dynamic Hall's motion as, dare I say, lumpy?

Lumpy, bumpy, rumpy, stumpy, jumpy, clumpy, frumpy, slumpy, plumpy, bumpy, and POOOOOOOOOOO.

 

[JiveTurkey]

The top end hash @MirrorProfiles mentions is Helix’s “tell” from an accuracy perspective. It was more noticeable in earlier firmware, got significantly better later, but gets worse with additional gain stages and is still there in Hx. I hear it in palm mutes and on the edges of single notes, sitting on top of chords. I broke up with Hx amp modeling because I couldn’t get the brighter tones I like without the hash.

I don’t find Agoura darker. I do notice more girth and bloom in notes and chords, more chunk in the lows and low mids, but I also notice that I can push the mids and top end and achieve bright tones with a solidity that I could NEVER seem to find in hours of tweaking parameters in Hx. It’s just there now and it has dynamics that feel like an amp.

You have to push the Stadium to get those gross highs and even then; they seem a bit more "tethered" to the sound.

 

[metropolis_4]

Lots of promising observations in this thread. It sounds like Line 6 might have fixed a lot of what I didn’t like about HX amp modeling! That’s very encouraging to hear

 

[[Nathan]]

The top end hash @MirrorProfiles mentions is Helix’s “tell” from an accuracy perspective. It was more noticeable in earlier firmware, got significantly better later, but gets worse with additional gain stages and is still there in Hx. I hear it in palm mutes and on the edges of single notes, sitting on top of chords. I broke up with Hx amp modeling because I couldn’t get the brighter tones I like without the hash.

I don’t find Agoura darker. I do notice more girth and bloom in notes and chords, more chunk in the lows and low mids, but I also notice that I can push the mids and top end and achieve bright tones with a solidity that I could NEVER seem to find in hours of tweaking parameters in Hx. It’s just there now and it has dynamics that feel like an amp.

I always soak in 100 data points about these devices before I get my hands on them, and I gotta say a first hand account like this is super useful to read!

 

[paisleywookiee]

I 100% agree with Sterlacci in this case and from his comparison it pretty obvious, expecialy when playing single notes, that the agoura models are more balanced, natural sounding and have more weight in the notes, while OG Helix model tend to be a bit "skinny".
A certain lack of weight has always been my main complaint with helix models.

I'm not bashing the OG Helix or anything here, I love my helix and played it live thorugh real cabs, frfr or direct to FOH for several years and with satisfaction. I stll prefer real amps though.

I'm actually really geeked that even the legacy HX amps that I already dig, will sound even better, in addition to the Agoura stuff.

 

[mbenigni]

Sort of? I'm still talking to you guys, so...

 

[EOengineer]

You have to push the Stadium to get those gross highs and even then; they seem a bit more "tethered" to the sound.

Tethered is an apt description. I can get gnarly stuff with the 800 tuned bright and a 57 right on the center but it’s a better type of gnarly. It’s the kind of gnarly I get out of my actual 800 when I do that. But then switch the 57 to a 160 or 414 and it just explodes out of the speakers. Double tracking some of the sounds I’m getting out of the Bogner is going to be SUPA BIG FUN TIME.

Side note - we agree on a lot of the Hx mods…their harmonic tremolo is one of my most often used lumpy/phase effects. TBF I’ve not revisited the mods yet in Stadium. The way Agoura reacts to the drives does have me reassessing those because the kinks boost is kinda killing for me right now in a few contexts.

I always soak in 100 data points about these devices before I get my hands on them, and I gotta say a first hand account like this is super useful to read!

I feel bad posting walls of text when people really want empirical data right now, but there is a feel component that isn’t going to come across in videos. The best advice I can give is to play through the hardware and see what you think.

I can’t say it beats fractal or QC as I don’t have a modern reference for them, but it’s at least on par with V2 Tonex. That’s a promising starting place for a 1.0 device with years of roadmap in front of it.

Just thinking about being able to run proxy caps of my fuzz and drive pedals into Agoura amps…I’m definitely bullish on Stadium.

 

[Mooselake]

Oh really? I found it extremely obvious, and my favourite setting was 100% post. Sounds much more aggressive and 'high gain' to me like that. I also like hype around 2-3.

I remember you (or someone) mentioning that recently, so I was surprised. It also may have been a case of tired ears because having a new toy like the stadium means I'm spending a lot more time playing, and playing a little louder than I normally do. Another thing that occurred to me is that I was doing all the adjusting via the editor app. Granted it's unlikely, but maybe there's a bug where that adjustment isn't getting reflected on the hardware (seems far fetched, I know) so later when I get back to it, I'll also try making the adjustment right on the unit to see if that produces different results.

 

[EOengineer]

I love this movie so much.

 

[Chocol8]

No - no modeled cab in the chain at all both times.

Based on some of the stuff I read about their SIC implementation, this might be a bit of a bug. I think you may need the cab block in the chain to set a SIC and then bypass it when going to a power amp and cab. What you are describing sounds similar to what you get when an amp has a fairly resistive load without the right curve (many attenuators). If it sounds better through headphones where you are presumably using a cab block, I would start there.

 

[Orvillain]

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Personally, I think this sounds fucking awesome.