Line 6 Helix Stadium Pre-Launch Discussion

[Sascha Franck]

but a hype knob would not be my preference to achieve sounds beyond what the stock model is capable of.

I think we get that by now. And maybe it's the same for me (no idea, really, perhaps I might love it) - but that's because you've got experience, whereas most users don't (just look at the amount of folks asking for presets - totally pointless for myself, but I get the idea).

just as I ignore Badonk etc.

That's something I really don't get. Why? I mean, I usually ignore it as well, but that's simply because I have no need for metal sounds 99% of all times, but otherwise, quite some of the L6 originals are great amps. The Voltage has become my go-to amp for anything dirt ever since it was added.

 

[Sascha Franck]

And btw, I wish a whole lot more companies would come up with their own digital amp models, rather than playing the copy cat game yet again. Hence I absolutely applaud L6 for doing so (and Boss sort of as well - just that their amps sound pretty bad for the largest part, at least for my taste).

 

[I S]

People bitching about a feature they haven’t yet tried, from a yet to be released product, and who can opt not to use it.

Keep it classy Internet…

 

[Vic Winters]

Realize that the extra DSP blocks don't actually make the amp sound better, they just make it more accurate, warts and all. We could leave it as is—that is, more pleasing to the ear—and use up 1/3 of the DSP. Even if Stan can tell a difference in our studio A/B/X test, he likely wouldn't notice anything off by itself. Braydens might actually prefer the lower-DSP version

Would you release an update that has both versions?

Normally I'd say probably not, but now that I'm thinking about it, maybe it makes sense.

Say one year we finally come out with the now-mythological HELIX 2 and it has a completely different modeling engine that uses way more DSP. Finance and Sales would definitely want to transition our existing XXX,000 Helix/HX users to the new flagship and the easiest way for that to happen would be compatibility with existing preset libraries, which would of course require models from Helix/HX.

Conversely, Ben, Sam, and Ryan might not want anything but their latest and best work to be represented. Products and Design might find the UX to be unwieldy, especially when trying to help minimize users' option anxiety. Plus, CS would get annoyed at fielding calls about why there are two Fender Twins or two Ampeg SVTs.

I'm sure there'll be healthy, polite debate, both internally and externally. /s

Did... did I plant the seeds for the Hype knob that everyone is fighting about now?


Edit: DI definitely nailed it in the last line though.

 

[I S]

I have to assume this idea goes years back. No offense.

 

[mikah912]

View attachment 50346

I love social media

 

[JiveTurkey]

I think Line 6 has done a really good job making products that engage both lazy and involved people. I still see a lot of “I just bought x modeler and it sounds like shit” and when you ask they never made it off the first bank of factory presets, have no idea what kind of sound they were looking for, made no attempt to dial anything in, and are also somehow monitoring it through the built-in speakers on their laptop.

Most people that still hang on to this kind of anti-L6 prejudice because they seriously thought in 1997 some combo amp with bright lights was going to replace a wall full of cranked Marshalls. Probably would have been a good thing for everyone if they would have known to temper their expectations a little bit at the time

 

[MirrorProfiles]

But are people buying or using X amp because it is X amp or are they buying or using X amp because they love the tone where Y artist used X amp on whatever seminal record? If you don't know for sure, ask the Jose Arrendondo estate, Dave Friedman, Reinhold Bogner, Scott Splawn, Mark Cameron, David Bray, Lee Jackson, Mike Fortin, Dan Gower, Jens Kruse, Jason Tong.....

I'm pretty sure these gents ain't making a living making amps that sound "like the real" Plexi or JCM800.

This is totally missing the point I'm afraid. I can't really comment aside from those guys circuits have nothing to do with the hype knob. If their circuits were modelled, then I'd want an accurate model, not a cartoonish approximation of what people think they might sound like.

Do you feel the same about Fractal allowing you to swap tonestacks, tubes, and change voltages and other topographical components? Because that also implies that the amp - as is - isn't good enough.

There is a key difference. If you make these adjustments, you are doing it purposefully and with a specific intention. Any kind of knob that is along the lines of "betterizing" is a different approach. My point is there are no shortcuts to bettering the tone, it might change it a bit but there's tons of ways to change the tone to your needs. Its like I mentioned about mix ready IR's - with no context, how can they be a step in the right direction?

I just don't understand the "I'm not going to use this feature, so I'd rather it not be in the device AT ALL. Its very presence offends me!" mindset I've seen from you and a few others here. Any modern multi-FX modeler will offer models and capabilities that won't be used by any given user. Like, no one buys a Fractal and regularly uses 350+ models. Or uses all the factory presets. Or uses both performance pages all the time.

My issue is really that if someone can't dial a tone they like with an accurate model, a hype knob will just lead them to a different version of a bad tone. Maybe that's helpful or what some people want, but I can't really understand it for my needs. And yeah, with Fractal and Line 6, the first thing I do is remove presets and cab IR's that I don't want getting in the way. I'd customise any gear I possibly can for my needs, as would anyone else. I really don't see it as a good idea or groundbreaking, accurate modelling is sufficient IMO. I don't mind people disagreeing either, but I also don't expect a hype knob to be a big deal for them.

The crux of the issue is "warts and all" is assumed as bad and "pleasing to the ear" is EXTREMELY context dependent AND subjective. Without taking into account context or the users preferences, there's a massive limit on how much it can improve anything compared to just dialling in what you want yourself.

 

[sashimi]

So, don’t turn up the hype knob?

Or does it just bother you that someone else might turn it up?

I like the idea and I’ll be curious to hear what it does. I don’t necessarily care what it does behind the scenes, or if it’s not ‘accurate’. If it sounds good I’ll use it, if it doesn’t I won’t. I have experimented with all kinds of EQ and sag/hub/ripple/bias tweaks and stacked subtle compression in Helix and sometimes I have liked the results, other times I haven’t. The hype knob just sounds like an easy way to do that with the help of the people who designed the amp models. And easy to undo and go back to zero. Or easy to ignore completely. I am cool with the hype knob.

 

[Lysander]

Maybe L6 could release a Pod version with three controls. Up and down to choose the amp and then one huge hype knob dead center under the display. Tweak and Jam. Headphone out only. Amp in the head tones for days.

 

[mikah912]

This is totally missing the point I'm afraid. I can't really comment aside from those guys circuits have nothing to do with the hype knob. If their circuits were modelled, then I'd want an accurate model, not a cartoonish approximation of what people think they might sound like.


There is a key difference. If you make these adjustments, you are doing it purposefully and with a specific intention. Any kind of knob that is along the lines of "betterizing" is a different approach. My point is there are no shortcuts to bettering the tone, it might change it a bit but there's tons of ways to change the tone to your needs. Its like I mentioned about mix ready IR's - with no context, how can they be a step in the right direction?


My issue is really that if someone can't dial a tone they like with an accurate model, a hype knob will just lead them to a different version of a bad tone. Maybe that's helpful or what some people want, but I can't really understand it for my needs. And yeah, with Fractal and Line 6, the first thing I do is remove presets and cab IR's that I don't want getting in the way. I'd customise any gear I possibly can for my needs, as would anyone else. I really don't see it as a good idea or groundbreaking, accurate modelling is sufficient IMO. I don't mind people disagreeing either, but I also don't expect a hype knob to be a big deal for them.

The crux of the issue is "warts and all" is assumed as bad and "pleasing to the ear" is EXTREMELY context dependent AND subjective. Without taking into account context or the users preferences, there's a massive limit on how much it can improve anything compared to just dialling in what you want yourself.

I was going to do another detailed response, but didn't see the point. I can only say you are definitely one type of customer. There are others, and choices in how they go about using the unit will almost never be detrimental in and of themselves.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I was going to do another detailed response, but didn't see the point. I can only say you are definitely one type of customer. There are others, and choices in how they go about using the unit will almost never be detrimental in and of themselves.

I totally agree with this and I don’t expect Line 6 to build a device to a narrow audience, especially one with my views

All I’ve said is why I think it’s not a particularly exciting feature to me and that I probably won’t use it, as well as stating why I don’t think it’s useful. Obviously no user is going to have the same feelings toward every feature, and there’s nothing wrong with different opinions on it.

A hype knob to me would be way more interesting if it could work in a negative direction, or if you could have more control over what is being affected. But, whatever, it’s not for users like me and if people think it’s helpful to them, then crack on.

My experience has generally been tones suffer from too much processing rather than too little. And things designed at a more “mix ready/pleasing” sound often cause more problems than they solve. Maybe my opinion will change once I’ve used it, but it’s not a problem I’ve ever encountered before so maybe that’s why the solution is hard to understand?

 

[mikah912]

I totally agree with this and I don’t expect Line 6 to build a device to a narrow audience, especially one with my views

All I’ve said is why I think it’s not a particularly exciting feature to me and that I probably won’t use it, as well as stating why I don’t think it’s useful. Obviously no user is going to have the same feelings toward every feature, and there’s nothing wrong with different opinions on it.

A hype knob to me would be way more interesting if it could work in a negative direction, or if you could have more control over what is being affected. But, whatever, it’s not for users like me and if people think it’s helpful to them, then crack on.

My experience has generally been tones suffer from too much processing rather than too little. And things designed at a more “mix ready/pleasing” sound often cause more problems than they solve. Maybe my opinion will change once I’ve used it, but it’s not a problem I’ve ever encountered before so maybe that’s why the solution is hard to understand?

Maybe let's wait until we hear it for ourselves on a few amps?

 

[I S]

Maybe let's wait until we hear it for ourselves on a few amps?

You’re being grossly reasonable for this thread. It’s quite arousing, sexually I mean…

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Maybe let's wait until we hear it for ourselves on a few amps?

My issue isn't with the sound (because thats always subjective) and purely with the approach. Being able to modify sounds is a good thing, and a big advantage of digital. I'd just prefer it to be done in a different way than a single knob.

I clearly have no issue with the sound because I have no idea what it does, and honestly, even if it's sold as an improvement, the reality is its just going to offer something different (which can be achieved in any number of ways). Whatever hype does on any particular amp will depend on so many things that no one can have a blanket opinion over how it sounds. The method of how it achieves what it's doing? I think thats fair enough to discuss.

(not aimed at you) is it really an issue if I'm not excited by one tiny new feature? No user is going to enjoy every aspect of everything, and nor should they.

 

[ispunk]

So many triggered Karens in this thread. Jeez Louise

 

[AZG]

Dude, allow me to gush a bit. Helix Stadium Backpack might be the most well-designed and well-thought-out thing Line 6 has ever made. Other than a couple of suggestions, I had nothing to do with it; that was all Dale and he knocked it out of the park.

I have original Helix backpack and I think it is pretty nice, so I can see how the 2.0 bag would be even nicer. Speaking of which, I assume the new Stadiums do fit in the old bag? I read somewhere that they don't, but that doesn't make any sense unless the Stadiums are incredibly tall? I've only seen width and depth measurements, but based on photos it looks like the Stadiums might be shallower than the original Helix Floor?

 

[mikah912]

My issue isn't with the sound (because thats always subjective) and purely with the approach. Being able to modify sounds is a good thing, and a big advantage of digital. I'd just prefer it to be done in a different way than a single knob.

I clearly have no issue with the sound because I have no idea what it does, and honestly, even if it's sold as an improvement, the reality is its just going to offer something different (which can be achieved in any number of ways). Whatever hype does on any particular amp will depend on so many things that no one can have a blanket opinion over how it sounds. The method of how it achieves what it's doing? I think thats fair enough to discuss.

(not aimed at you) is it really an issue if I'm not excited by one tiny new feature? No user is going to enjoy every aspect of everything, and nor should they.

I don't think anyone cares if you're simply not excited by a feature. Your lengthy tirades indicate this is more than that, however, as if it's an affront to you somehow. Your first point stated it was a dumb concept, so coming in that hot may have had something to do with the response you got.

I just don't think vague tone parameters are unique to Line 6 or even to digital modelers. I don't think the average, say, Friedman BE-100 owner can tell you exactly what's going on when they toggle the gain structure, voice or C45 controls. They know it does something, and it either sounds more or less right according to the sound in their head.

Hell, Hype may turn out to be a nothing burger for me personally. I don't have any relevant data to know one way or the other, and I don't think anyone else does either.

 

[Chocol8]

I'd just prefer it to be done in a different way than a single knob.

Do you have any idea how off in left field you are coming across here? The Stadium will have a hell of a lot more than one control. You are perseverating on one control of many and saying you don't like it because it is a single knob! WTF? That's a really whacky argument to make.

It is one option of many that a user can use to shape tone to their liking. Sure someone with a lot of experience with real amps, other digital solutions, recording, and mixing might have no use for a simplified interface, but 99.9% of customers will not have the same level of experience and knowledge. For a lot of players, a simple control that dials out some of the warts of the real thing, and gets them closer to a tone they prefer quickly is a good thing.

 

[KingsXJJ]

View attachment 50348

Missing the critical next-gen Hype control. Maybe with all the clamor for it, they’ll put it on the MKII and get rid of the other non-essential knobs. One can only hope. Oh and quit it with the Behringturd level enclosure!