Levels, LUFS, SoundCloud, Mastering (WTF)

[Whizzinby]

So SoundCloud really does a number on most of my mixes. If I’m listening to the wav files of the final mastered track via my Apple Music library, the audio quality is notably better. I’m assuming that’s because SoundCloud is just compressing the shit out of the tracks I upload. But, there is a ton of pro stuff on SC that sounds really good, so clearly people are able to mix/master for the platform. I generally have a hands off approach to mastering, and let the Ozone assistant to do the work. I have it set to master for “streaming” so I generally just assume it would optimize it for that. But, here I am.

But I’m still fuzzy on leveling and volume aims when mastering. Generally for my individual instrument tracks I level those parts out without clipping, then send it to a bus for that instrument type. (Clean guitars, distorted guitars, bass, drums) I use the buses to actually balance the song, and never have any of those buses clip. Then for the Stereo Out, I’ve always heard you should keep it like minus 6-10db to let the mastering process bring up the loudness. So generally I keep my stereo out fader set to -8db, then run Ozone, then bounce the track.

Is the some other process to use? Are you guys using any tools to look at loudness beyond the meter on the stereo out in Logic? Do you guys monitor LUFS and all that crap?

 

[2112]

Most streaming platforms normalise audio to -14 LUFS. I use Fabfilter Pro-L as a glorified LUFS monitor to aim for around there.

 

[Whizzinby]

Most streaming platforms normalise audio to -14 LUFS. I use Fabfilter Pro-L as a glorified LUFS monitor to aim for around there.

Where do you put your Stereo Out levels Leon? (Before mastering, limiting etc)

I’ve been leaving it around -8db under the impression that I should leave Ozone to regain the volume during mastering.

 

[SeeD]

I guess the rule is don`t clip any tracks, or Bus, and as you say let Ozone do the rest. Don`t go down the rute of pressing the levles `too high` dont be like Death Magnitic haha. Things need some breathing. The hole Mastering stuff is EQ, Comp, `track fader riding` and pushing the levles up. I don`t fuzz too mutch with this stuff. If I would like to make a Single, EP, Album I would then hand over that stuff to folks that are pro`s

 

[Cirrus]

I think you should largely just aim for whatever volume it sounds good at. With dense, intense music, quite often -14lufs is needlessly overdynamic or leaves 3-4dB at the top that's just not being used because you've compressed/ limited it for artistic reasons anyway. Then Spotify doesn't turn it down, but anywhere else that doesn't have automatic volume levelling it could have been 3-4dB louder without any sonic penalty at all, so you've not really gained anything, if that makes sense, over making it -11LUFS (still quite a conservative target for many genres) and just accepting that sometimes it'll be turned down in some places.

 

[Whizzinby]

I guess the rule is don`t clip any tracks, or Bus, and as you say let Ozone do the rest. Don`t go down the rute of pressing the levles `too high` dont be like Death Magnitic haha. Things need some breathing. The hole Mastering stuff is EQ, Comp, `track fader riding` and pushing the levles up. I don`t fuzz too mutch with this stuff. If I would like to make a Single, EP, Album I would then hand over that stuff to folks that are pro`s

So on the stereo out, as long as it never clips, I don’t need to bake in extra gain (volume) reduction before mastering?

 

[Whizzinby]

I think you should largely just aim for whatever volume it sounds good at. With dense, intense music, quite often -14lufs is needlessly overdynamic or leaves 3-4dB at the top that's just not being used because you've compressed/ limited it for artistic reasons anyway. Then Spotify doesn't turn it down, but anywhere else that doesn't have automatic volume levelling it could have been 3-4dB louder without any sonic penalty at all, so you've not really gained anything, if that makes sense, over making it -11LUFS (still quite a conservative target for many genres) and just accepting that sometimes it'll be turned down in some places.

So, do the streaming platforms turn the entire track down based on the peak, or do they only turn down the part that peaks past their threshold?

 

[Cirrus]

So on the stereo out, as long as it never clips, I don’t need to bake in extra gain (volume) reduction before mastering?

Short answer is no, but the devil is in the details. Some things you might do in a mix will require more headroom than others, but if there's not some analogue gear or digital emulation of that's going to be too crunchy with peaks at -0.1dBfs on your mix bus, it doesn't matter how hot you print a mix as long as it's not clipping.

So, do the streaming platforms turn the entire track down based on the peak, or do they only turn down the part that peaks past their threshold?

LUFS is a measure of average volume over time, so it's not really about peaks. When talking about Spotify style volume levelling, Spotify will analyse the whole track, come up with one number that is the average LUFS level of the entire song, and change the volume of the whole track down if it's too high for their target setting.

However... though LUFS is a defined measurement standard, how it's applied can differ. For example... parts of the track below a certain volume might not be included in the average level calculation. Because if you have a song that's mostly quiet then very loud at the end, the average LUFS will be low but then the loud bit goes too loud. Also, Spotify does other stuff - I know in the past they've also put a brick wall limiter at -1dBfs on so that would only impact transients over the threshold. Don't know if they still do that. I also don't know if they genuinely measure LUFS of if they have their own algo that's been tweaked.

 

[fretworn]

I’m trying to understand this as well… Have made a little bit of progress, but not quite as much as I wish.

I’m usually around -9 LUFs lately

I have opinions, but they’re not fully grounded in my skills yet.

The cymbals getting crushed along with the dynamics is so disheartening. Even the mix will change upon their compression application.

The limiters are brutal… The one ozone that seems to work “best” is IV: Transient

There are some fairly deep editing videos that show you how to gain stage properly before applying the ozone limiter. I’m not quite that disciplined.

But there’s a lot of different capabilities to hit quality within ozone10.

Life is learning

 

[Whizzinby]

I’m trying to understand this as well… Have made a little bit of progress, but not quite as much as I wish.

I’m usually around -9 LUFs lately

I have opinions, but they’re not fully grounded in my skills yet.

The cymbals getting crushed along with the dynamics is so disheartening. Even the mix will change upon their compression application.

The limiters are brutal… The one ozone that seems to work “best” is IV: Transient

There are some fairly deep editing videos that show you how to gain stage properly before applying the ozone limiter. I’m not quite that disciplined.

But there’s a lot of different capabilities to hit quality within ozone10.

Life is learning

Yeah I was watching some Ozone stuff yesterday and I’ve got some things to look at with the True Peak settings in the Maximizer. TBH I never even look at what it’s doing, I just think “that sounds good” and bounce the track.

My problem generally is just the conversion to SoundCloud. I’m not exactly making Bohemian Rhapsody mixes but I’m normally content with how everything sounds with the raw wav files I upload to Apple Music. The SoundCloud conversion really adds this top end wash of fizz and grain that makes everything seem looser. The raw track is much more compact and punchy.

 

[fretworn]

Yeah I was watching some Ozone stuff yesterday and I’ve got some things to look at with the True Peak settings in the Maximizer. TBH I never even look at what it’s doing, I just think “that sounds good” and bounce the track.

My problem generally is just the conversion to SoundCloud. I’m not exactly making Bohemian Rhapsody mixes but I’m normally content with how everything sounds with the raw wav files I upload to Apple Music. The SoundCloud conversion really adds this top end wash of fizz and grain that makes everything seem looser. The raw track is much more compact and punchy.

Making sure that you don’t blow past SoundCloud’s limits helps a lot.

You could even master to -1 dB down to be sure that you’re not getting limited by SoundCloud.

I’m strongly considering alternatives to SC

 

[Cirrus]

General mix loudness is a skill with lots of components and I'm not going to pretend I'm great at it. I generally find I can get up to around -8.5lufs short term in choruses, -10 or 11 lufs long term before I start feeling like I'm genuinely compromising the fidelity, short/ long term dynamics, transient punch and sonic clarity in pursuit of volume.

How well a given mix will take being made really loud goes right back to the arrangement stage - using appropriate sounds, making space for things etc.

One thing I've found to help - limiting the drum bus rather than the master can bring transients under control without said transient crushing mushing up other parts of the mix.


On Soundcloud... It just is shit. it's a shit algo, it's the worst sounding platform. You notice it more on your own stuff because you have a real emotional connection with it and a familiarity with how much better it sounded before the upload.

 

[Whizzinby]

Making sure that you don’t blow past SoundCloud’s limits helps a lot.

You could even master to -1 dB down to be sure that you’re not getting limited by SoundCloud.

I’m strongly considering alternatives to SC

That was one of the settings I saw in a video, setting the true peak to -1db for SoundCloud.

If you find something better than SC let me know.

 

[SeeD]

So on the stereo out, as long as it never clips, I don’t need to bake in extra gain (volume) reduction before mastering?

I don`t do this at least. The Ozone have a "brickwall" comp that is suposed to bring the volume up to -0,5 -1 any higher then that things get close to clipping ( this dont sound good in the digital space. The mixing part make the parts stand out I would say, so maybe spend more time with that
I heard on your last song it was clipping at one point ( i think ) When using Ozone it needs to `hear` and `learn` the loudest part in the song.

 

[fretworn]

When using Ozone it needs to `hear` and `learn` the loudest part in the song.

I’ve noticed that there are good and bad ways to do this…

Just using the overall assistant to listen to the loudest part is not the best tone IME

What I’ve learned to do, is use the individual “learn” tools for different sections

So for loudness, I will absolutely stick the lufs meter at the target (there is a way to calculate this, but it’s sophisticated so I don’t … The guy that shows how to do this is brilliant), and then I will point the limiter assistant to listen to the loudest part.

This works better for me other than just relying on the two seconds the general AI grabs for the whole signal chain.

I’m generally using that function for making sure the EQ and compressors are working correctly.

Remember that you can use the “learn” function within any module at any segment … I do this, especially on the final compressor and the limiter/saturator/maximizer

A lot of advanced techniques are all about limiting way before you ever use a limiter. Using things like clippers and manual edits. This is guru level mastering stuff…

 

[Sleezy E]

I put this up in another thread a couple weeks back.
While SoundCloud might not be the greatest, I agree with the consensus that if you keep you lufts in the 12-14 range, it won't take the nuts out of your mixes so much.

Ok... so I was super curious about this, so I uploaded the same tune on 3 different platforms...

SoundCloud, Band Camp, and Drop Box

The song has a lot of cymbal stuff in the first 15-20 seconds so it's a pretty good benchmark, I think.

IMHO Drop Box maaaaaayyyy have a little higher fidelity, but it's also way louder. When you compensate for Fletcher Munson, I don't really feel it's all that different..

Also, Bandcamp allows the listener to download a wav or flac of the song for free

What says you?
My LUFS came in at 12.7 on the original wav file fwiw

Between The Lines 5-2-23 WAV.wav

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[telecode101]

I usually stay waay below. I figure if someone likes what they are hearing they can always turn it up. i dont need to complete with the drill rappers.

 

[fretworn]

I can’t really turn it up with an iPhone and Apple AirPods Pro2 … Not with Dre beats earbuds either

(I recently bought both tried to see which was better… So I have comments on each… However, I do think the new feature of mapping the outside of your ear with the camera for the AirPods2 for psychoacoustic processing, works really well)

Loudness matters… Because people think that loud sounds better… It does.

On the studio monitors, I have infinite game up until they hit the smoke point

But a lot of people listen on the pods

 

[SeeD]

If a song mix is `shit`.. but loud, and another song is lower in volume, but the mix is better, I would like the lower vol song better.
But I agree that SoundCloud does something with the songs, but they have an option to pay.. maybe that would make it more like the original, I don`t know.
But my tip to music makers is to have fun recording, see some youtube videos on how to mix better, how to `master` a song. Just have fun doing it.
And always try to record the best takes you can, don`t leave in something you know you could track better ( guitar, bass )

Ps: and dont try to use the same DAW template on every song, dare to try something different sometimes

 

[telecode101]

My personal approach to loundness is it really depends on the music.but i don't try to compete and match with the LUFS levels of the songs that float by when listening to SC. Especially if its not the genre I am even working in. A rough guideline is the -14 LUFS but I think even that needs to be approached from a personal approach. Its just a guideline and needs to be adjusted to your personal tastes. And quite frankly, I think a lot of EDM and HH on SC is hitting much hotter than that.