It don’t matter cause the audience can’t tell the difference..

[TSJMajesty]

 

[GuitarBilly74]

So tell me genius since I "don't know how to mix amps", how to you make a 115db SPL amp at your measurement point sit at the venue's 105dB max SPL? What mixing technique can I employ that not only lowers that amp into that range, but also somehow fits every other instrument in there that needs to be heard over that amp?

There is no "knowing how to mix" that can overcome physics

What's that? You've never worked at a venue large enough to require SPL tracking per event? All those guys that "don't know how to mix amps" running the biggest events in the world could really use your help in edumacashun

Yeah because amp volume starts at 115db.

 

[gearJunkie]

how to you make a 115db SPL amp at your measurement point sit at the venue's 105dB max SPL?

 

[pipelineaudio]

Yeah because amp volume starts at 115db.

You're going to need a bobcat to clean up those trenches made from the goalposts moving there

 

[pipelineaudio]

View attachment 39503
View attachment 39504

That wasn't the claim, that is NOT a mix function, its the very thing being argued against here that can somehow allegedly be fixed by the mixing console

 

[spawnofthesith]

No one's moving any goal posts you're the one who brought up 115db


And even so, having seen bands like Mogwai that are probably pushing those kind of dBs live, ...miraculously it still sounds and feels amazing live so....

 

[GuitarBilly74]

You're going to need a bobcat to clean up those trenches made from the goalposts moving there

lol you are the one who brought up 115db. I can set my amp way below that and still get a great tone, easily.

 

[la szum]

 

[gearJunkie]

That wasn't the claim, that is NOT a mix function, its the very thing being argued against here that can somehow allegedly be fixed by the mixing console

wasn't a criticism, just making a joke

 

[ian_dissonance]

Meh, I’ll trust a guy who works in the venue 7/10 times if there are suggestions on volume. The other three times I’m the sound guy and I’ll just give two asks and then turn your shit down myself if needed. If it’s a vocals only PA and I can’t hear the acoustic kick in front of the stage, you’re probably too loud for the room.

 

[ian_dissonance]

Unless it’s a doom band. I just assume they are trying to sound like buttered shit.

 

[spawnofthesith]

I can’t think of any gigs in recent memory where I’ve been unhappy with my amp stage volume


I too am on the sound guys side 99% of the time (only really had 1 or 2 genuinely shitty sound guy encounters sonce playing with my current band) but fortunately I’ve also never encountered one scared of tube amps or who thinks throwing a mic on a cab is some burden or big deal like certain posters would lead you to believe

 

[GuitarBilly74]

I can’t think of any gigs in recent memory where I’ve been unhappy with my amp stage volume


I too am on the sound guys side 99% of the time (only really had 1 or 2 genuinely shitty sound guy encounters sonce playing with my current band) but fortunately I’ve also never encountered one scared of tube amps or who thinks throwing a mic on a cab is some burden or big deal like certain posters would lead you to believe

Same. Getting a good sound on stage never got me in any trouble with any soundguy I've worked with, from venues ranging from 50 to 1000+ capacity.
I also play with a lot of other bands here and I don't really know any guitar player that cranks to ungodly levels, brings full stacks to a hole in the wall or any of the other absurdities claimed here.

 

[6CA7-A]

Yes folks even Stradivarius & Rembrant had 26 mediocre weeks a year.

 

[paisleywookiee]

 

[OneEng]

The three central points of your comment are not explicitly true.

Loud stage volume is where good quality front of house sound goes to die - no. Not always.

Guitar players that have loud stage volume are a menace and are to be avoided at all cost - no. Not always.

Most audience members will classify the band as a single entity - no. Not always.

1. Very true. If the stage volume is high enough that the SPL of drums, guitar, bass, the wedge monitor, etc is LOUDER than the vocal is at the vocal mic, there is NO chance of good FOH sound. None, zero, zip! Furthermore, when you have all that noise being reamplified by vocal mics and then having some reverb added to the pea soup, you get nothing but mush out front. No instrument separation at all, no vocal clarity .... just plain crap. Sadly, that is how lots of bands gig every week (not the good ones though).

2. A single guitar player with a 100W tube amp can drown an entire band. Surely everyone here has seen the guy (or is the guy it sounds like in some instances) with the guitar amp behind him pointed at the back of his his knees killing the side of the audience his amp is pointed at, while the other side can't hear the guitar at all. All the while, you can't hear the singers at all above the noise. Loud guitars on a small stage = No chance of good FOH sound.

3. Unless the audience is filled with musicians, the likely hood that anyone of them can pick out a "bass line" in a song is remote at best. Unlike nearly everyone here, the general bar goer knows very little about music and what makes a band sound "good" to them. But I'll give it to you. Not always. By default, the definition of "Most" includes "Not always".... right?

Thats a very different starting point then…I can’t even remember when I was in a situation like that and I play in a lot of different line ups.
In my scene (no rock/metal) it’s pretty much the norm that everybody keeps it civilized, and tries to balance the stage sound to a good mix.

Fair. I have heard several jazz and blues bands play like you describe (at least in good bars) and it sounds quite nice. These genres seem to be much more immune to the silly high stage noise problems found in rock, classic rock, modern rock and Metal.

Reading some comments here it sounds as if there were no good mixes before direct guitars, and that's just not true. Mixing amps and real drums is definitely harder and these days I am running more into sound guys that just don't know how to do it and think the amps are to blame. Then the next guy gets a great mix without any crazy stage volume restrictions. So it's more of a skill issue than a gear issue, but shifting blame away from themselves is part of human nature. Guitar players do that too, for example, saying a rig is unforgiving when they can't play it etc.

There were significantly fewer I would say. I have been gigging since the early 80's. I have been doing it well since the mid 90's.

Mixing amps and maintaining a good FOH mix is doable simply by keeping the amp volume down. Unfortunately, for acoustic drums, there isn't a volume knob so ONLY a drummer that is very conscious of their stage volume can successfully keep the band sounding good.

I have never liked an acoustic kit that didn't have the kick mic'ed. Unless you are playing jazz or blues, having a well miced kick is pretty important for every genre of rock IMO.

The issue with high stage volume can not be overcome though. If the stage is too loud, the FOH sounds bad. This isn't to say that you can't successfully use a "vocal and kick only" PA and sound pretty darned good. You absolutely can ..... BUT .... it requires musicians that can keep control of their volume and DO WHAT THE SOUNDMAN TELLS THEM.

The moment one of the band members decide that this "guy running sound" isn't going to tell me what to do.... well, things generally go down hill from there.

You did make a good point though. Controlling your stage volume when NOT going straight into the PA and using a silent stage and IEM's requires talent and a desire to make the band sound good above the desire to hear what the musician finds pleasing on stage.

vDrums, IEM's and individual monitor mixes, and modelers going straight into the PA don't guarantee a good sounding band, but they do greatly enhance the odds. If you have a setup like this:

1) You have more than a couple of pennies to rub together and likely have some pretty good sounding gear ... and are likely a pretty decent musician that has been doing this a while (or have wealthy parents).

2) You have a sound person that mixes the FOH completely independent of your monitor mixes to ensure the audience hears a great mix. This relieves the stage musicians from needing to "mix from stage" by controlling their volume based on what they are hearing BEHIND the FOH speakers (which is much more difficult to get right).

3) Each musician can totally control their own monitor mix. Raising the volume on their own monitor mix has ZERO chance of causing feedback (vs wedges which are the #1 source of feedback). This makes it so everyone hears exactly what they need and want to hear in their mix and no sound person can mess them up.

All you need is vocals through the PA, and a sound guy willing to bitchslap the guitarist(s), bassist, and drummer. Simple.

LOL. Not bad :). I would still want the kick miced and have at least 1 good sub as well, but in general, I can't argue with your statement!

I can’t think of any gigs in recent memory where I’ve been unhappy with my amp stage volume


I too am on the sound guys side 99% of the time (only really had 1 or 2 genuinely shitty sound guy encounters sonce playing with my current band) but fortunately I’ve also never encountered one scared of tube amps or who thinks throwing a mic on a cab is some burden or big deal like certain posters would lead you to believe

Not at all. I still have a pair of e906's for this very purpose. When I was gigging with a tube amp (up until 2013), this is how I always did it. Still, I had to keep the stage volume down. Generally pointed my amp at the back of the stage, and have been using IEM's since the 90's.... so I have always been able to hear a good monitor mix. In the early 80's to the mid 90's .... NOT SO MUCH. Nothing but feedback issues, crap FOH sound, ringing ears (seriously, am I the only one here that has had band members practice with EAR PLUGS IN because it was so loud?), and never being able to get the vocals over the mix.

I learned from watching other bands do it well. I asked the band members how they did it. I talked to the guy running or who owned the PA. I went to touring musicians and asked what setups they were using, etc, etc.

For those that just want to make noise and have fun, it really doesn't matter. If you have heard a really good band and thought to yourself "I want my band to sound like that" .... then you start thinking a little differently.

 

[Orvillain]

1. Very true. If the stage volume is high enough that the SPL of drums, guitar, bass, the wedge monitor, etc is LOUDER than the vocal is at the vocal mic, there is NO chance of good FOH sound. None, zero, zip! Furthermore, when you have all that noise being reamplified by vocal mics and then having some reverb added to the pea soup, you get nothing but mush out front. No instrument separation at all, no vocal clarity .... just plain crap. Sadly, that is how lots of bands gig every week (not the good ones though).

2. A single guitar player with a 100W tube amp can drown an entire band. Surely everyone here has seen the guy (or is the guy it sounds like in some instances) with the guitar amp behind him pointed at the back of his his knees killing the side of the audience his amp is pointed at, while the other side can't hear the guitar at all. All the while, you can't hear the singers at all above the noise. Loud guitars on a small stage = No chance of good FOH sound.

3. Unless the audience is filled with musicians, the likely hood that anyone of them can pick out a "bass line" in a song is remote at best. Unlike nearly everyone here, the general bar goer knows very little about music and what makes a band sound "good" to them. But I'll give it to you. Not always. By default, the definition of "Most" includes "Not always".... right?

Nonsense.

 

[TubeStack]

1. Very true. If the stage volume is high enough that the SPL of drums, guitar, bass, the wedge monitor, etc is LOUDER than the vocal is at the vocal mic, there is NO chance of good FOH sound. None, zero, zip! Furthermore, when you have all that noise being reamplified by vocal mics and then having some reverb added to the pea soup, you get nothing but mush out front. No instrument separation at all, no vocal clarity .... just plain crap. Sadly, that is how lots of bands gig every week (not the good ones though).

2. A single guitar player with a 100W tube amp can drown an entire band. Surely everyone here has seen the guy (or is the guy it sounds like in some instances) with the guitar amp behind him pointed at the back of his his knees killing the side of the audience his amp is pointed at, while the other side can't hear the guitar at all. All the while, you can't hear the singers at all above the noise. Loud guitars on a small stage = No chance of good FOH sound.

3. Unless the audience is filled with musicians, the likely hood that anyone of them can pick out a "bass line" in a song is remote at best. Unlike nearly everyone here, the general bar goer knows very little about music and what makes a band sound "good" to them. But I'll give it to you. Not always. By default, the definition of "Most" includes "Not always".... right?

Fair. I have heard several jazz and blues bands play like you describe (at least in good bars) and it sounds quite nice. These genres seem to be much more immune to the silly high stage noise problems found in rock, classic rock, modern rock and Metal.

There were significantly fewer I would say. I have been gigging since the early 80's. I have been doing it well since the mid 90's.

Mixing amps and maintaining a good FOH mix is doable simply by keeping the amp volume down. Unfortunately, for acoustic drums, there isn't a volume knob so ONLY a drummer that is very conscious of their stage volume can successfully keep the band sounding good.

I have never liked an acoustic kit that didn't have the kick mic'ed. Unless you are playing jazz or blues, having a well miced kick is pretty important for every genre of rock IMO.

The issue with high stage volume can not be overcome though. If the stage is too loud, the FOH sounds bad. This isn't to say that you can't successfully use a "vocal and kick only" PA and sound pretty darned good. You absolutely can ..... BUT .... it requires musicians that can keep control of their volume and DO WHAT THE SOUNDMAN TELLS THEM.

The moment one of the band members decide that this "guy running sound" isn't going to tell me what to do.... well, things generally go down hill from there.

You did make a good point though. Controlling your stage volume when NOT going straight into the PA and using a silent stage and IEM's requires talent and a desire to make the band sound good above the desire to hear what the musician finds pleasing on stage.

vDrums, IEM's and individual monitor mixes, and modelers going straight into the PA don't guarantee a good sounding band, but they do greatly enhance the odds. If you have a setup like this:

1) You have more than a couple of pennies to rub together and likely have some pretty good sounding gear ... and are likely a pretty decent musician that has been doing this a while (or have wealthy parents).

2) You have a sound person that mixes the FOH completely independent of your monitor mixes to ensure the audience hears a great mix. This relieves the stage musicians from needing to "mix from stage" by controlling their volume based on what they are hearing BEHIND the FOH speakers (which is much more difficult to get right).

3) Each musician can totally control their own monitor mix. Raising the volume on their own monitor mix has ZERO chance of causing feedback (vs wedges which are the #1 source of feedback). This makes it so everyone hears exactly what they need and want to hear in their mix and no sound person can mess them up.

LOL. Not bad :). I would still want the kick miced and have at least 1 good sub as well, but in general, I can't argue with your statement!

Not at all. I still have a pair of e906's for this very purpose. When I was gigging with a tube amp (up until 2013), this is how I always did it. Still, I had to keep the stage volume down. Generally pointed my amp at the back of the stage, and have been using IEM's since the 90's.... so I have always been able to hear a good monitor mix. In the early 80's to the mid 90's .... NOT SO MUCH. Nothing but feedback issues, crap FOH sound, ringing ears (seriously, am I the only one here that has had band members practice with EAR PLUGS IN because it was so loud?), and never being able to get the vocals over the mix.

I learned from watching other bands do it well. I asked the band members how they did it. I talked to the guy running or who owned the PA. I went to touring musicians and asked what setups they were using, etc, etc.

For those that just want to make noise and have fun, it really doesn't matter. If you have heard a really good band and thought to yourself "I want my band to sound like that" .... then you start thinking a little differently.

 

[la szum]

Same. Getting a good sound on stage never got me in any trouble with any soundguy I've worked with, from venues ranging from 50 to 1000+ capacity.
I also play with a lot of other bands here and I don't really know any guitar player that cranks to ungodly levels, brings full stacks to a hole in the wall or any of the other absurdities claimed here.

I agree. I just wonder what would we end up fuming and flaming over on here if we didn't concoct
various strawmen for our arguments???

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

and DO WHAT THE SOUNDMAN TELLS THEM.

The moment one of the band members decide that this "guy running sound" isn't going to tell me what to do.... well, things generally go down hill from there.

To me this reversal of how it should be.
It’s the musician’s responsibility to create a sound on stage according to their artistic view…you can’t and shouldn’t relay that to a soundguy.
Offcourse you work together with a tech to give him what he needs and address whatever challenges he runs into.
Offcourse if balance is not right, and individuals are overpowering others that should be fixed…part of musicianship…and should be adressed by the collective of the players.
Taking a little time aiming speakers ussually comes a long way,,,

I have been “that guy” in cases where stage volumes where super civilized, everyone on stages was happy, no amps blasting into mics…and a tech is still pushing silent stage cause he only wants to hear sound from his PA. Thats taking it to far imo, and not in the interest of the audience either.