IRs made with tube amps (ML Sound Lab claims)

[JiveTurkey]

All that needs to be said about IR's - they're are decidely not art. They are a tool, captured in a technical manner, to deliver a particular experience.

When you're buying IR's you're not buying art. You're buying a technically captured copy of THAT cab with THOSE speakers using THOSE mics in THAT room with THAT amount of detail.

If Bogren comes along and adds a fuck ton of highs to the IR's, you're not buying Bogren's engineering talents. You're buying pre-shaped IR's. That's it.

The original video makes some okay points. But a lot of it is just marketing hype nonsense. Which is fine. That's what companies do.

I 100% this, despite the fact that for the last 3-5 years I've used an IR of an IR for all my amp modeling speaker emulation

 

[HotRats]

All that needs to be said about IR's - they're are decidely not art. They are a tool, captured in a technical manner, to deliver a particular experience.

When you're buying IR's you're not buying art. You're buying a technically captured copy of THAT cab with THOSE speakers using THOSE mics in THAT room with THAT amount of detail.

If Bogren comes along and adds a fuck ton of highs to the IR's, you're not buying Bogren's engineering talents. You're buying pre-shaped IR's. That's it.

The original video makes some okay points. But a lot of it is just marketing hype nonsense. Which is fine. That's what companies do.

Mic selection, position, balance, is also what you pay for and those are decision made by the vendor using his judgment.

In this sense, when you buy an IR, you buy the ir maker expertise, taste and artistic view.

You can be as pedantic as Jay can be and underlying that using an IR is not like going into a recording studio with an actual engineer. Go figure!

 

[Orvillain]

Mic selection, position, balance, is also what you pay for and those are decision made by the vendor using his judgment.

In this sense, when you buy an IR, you buy the ir maker expertise, taste and artistic view.

You can be as pedantic as Jay can be and underlying that using an IR is not like going into a recording studio with an actual engineer. Go figure!

I need to see your audio engineering credentials before I will talk to you.

 

[LScottK]

The last page and a half of posts in this thread is why I lurk on forums more often than I post. I'm interested in the technicalities, though I often don't fully understand what's being discussed. I do my best to keep up, and I definitely learn things from folks who are more knowledgeable and experienced than I am. This is a large part of why I keep coming back, despite the animosity that often erupts in forums.

I lived in the Los Angeles area in the early 90s, during the Rodney King riots. IMO, there was good reason for people to be angry in that situation. However, I still think that Rodney King, the person who suffered the harm that energized the riots, had it right when he said:

"Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out"

Well meaning debates are interesting. Personal attacks and tearing down are off putting. I often disagree with statements made here or other places. But I don't feel the need to tear someone else down when I disagree. I just move on. Of course, that's just my opinion. YMMV

 

[ian_dissonance]

Well it’s more like having an engineer mic your cab for you. I think the conversations are (mostly) better here because of the expertise of some of the forum members even if they can’t take things at face value or are chode about it, lol. I can’t say I learn anything from the pedantry and assholery, but the information that comes with it is quite valuable. Pick your battles, just don’t pick them people who obviously know more than you. I have 26 years of experience playing guitar and another 20 doing various levels of audio engineering, that doesn’t mean my experience is as valuable as their knowledge.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Well it’s more like having an engineer mic your cab for you

Im not sure I really agree with this, unless it's "it's like having an engineer mic a cab for you, but without them knowing anything about you or what you're trying to achieve". An engineer mic'ing your cab in real life is probably going to know what the music is that you're trying to record, what gear you are using, what suits the aesthetic you're going for. And they'll probably take your own personal preference on board.

Using a pre-made IR is more like sneaking in the studio at night on someone else's session and using their mic position for yourself. It might be perfect, it might be totally inappropriate.

Even moreso for any IR's that have EQ slapped over them. An actual audio engineer is going to make those decisions based on the circumstances and what they hear, and what they are being hired to do. Slapping it on an IR without knowing where it's going to be used is nothing like an engineer doing it with purpose. Micing up a cab and processing it is very much a reactive process based on a lot of variables. Anyone can plug a mic in and place it in front of a cabinet

 

[HotRats]

An engineer mic'ing your cab in real life is probably going to know what the music is that you're trying to record, what gear you are using, what suits the aesthetic you're going for

That's why vendors often offer several pre made mixes to choose from.

Choosing and using and IR is obviously not the same as being in a studio with the actual engineer. How can it be?

While choosing the vendor, based on how the IRS sound (if they have a signature sound, like some have) is something like choosing the engineer for your project based on how his past works sound.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

That's why vendors often offer several pre made mixes to choose from.

IMO it's 99% marketing. There's no guarantee the processed or blended ones are going to be useful for you, and you certainly won't be getting any of their expertise on which one they would use in any given circumstance. If they were actually in the studio with you there are so many things they would probably do differently based on your specific needs in that specific moment.

Pre-mixed IR's is like seasoning a meal before you even know what you're eating. You can have a good guess, but it probably won't be ideal.

 

[ian_dissonance]

Im not sure I really agree with this, unless it's "it's like having an engineer mic a cab for you, but without them knowing anything about you or what you're trying to achieve". An engineer mic'ing your cab in real life is probably going to know what the music is that you're trying to record, what gear you are using, what suits the aesthetic you're going for. And they'll probably take your own personal preference on board.

Using a pre-made IR is more like sneaking in the studio at night on someone else's session and using their mic position for yourself. It might be perfect, it might be totally inappropriate.

Even moreso for any IR's that have EQ slapped over them. An actual audio engineer is going to make those decisions based on the circumstances and what they hear, and what they are being hired to do. Slapping it on an IR without knowing where it's going to be used is nothing like an engineer doing it with purpose. Micing up a cab and processing it is very much a reactive process based on a lot of variables. Anyone can plug a mic in and place it in front of a cabinet

Agreed. I guess my complete thought was it’s like having an engineer come in and mic your cab just by looking at it with no previous information, lol.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

IMO it's 99% marketing. There's no guarantee the processed or blended ones are going to be useful for you, and you certainly won't be getting any of their expertise on which one they would use in any given circumstance. If they were actually in the studio with you there are so many things they would probably do differently based on your specific needs in that specific moment.

Pre-mixed IR's is like seasoning a meal before you even know what you're eating. You can have a good guess, but it probably won't be ideal.

Making sure your product has a bunch of mixes isn't really marketing, its product design.

And I'd say someone making Pre-mixed IR of a Mesa Boogie OS 4x12 knows what's about to get eaten. They might not know EVERY ingredient and EXACT preparation, but they know beef cooked over an open flame with plenty of fat is involved.

IRs are like presets. And while technically "engineering" is necessarily involved with the creation of either, it also seems like not everyone creating either has the knowledge or skill to deserve the label "engineer". I sure ain't gonna use any of the forts "engineered" by my kids as a defensive shelter.

 

[HotRats]

IMO it's 99% marketing. There's no guarantee the processed or blended ones are going to be useful for you, and you certainly won't be getting any of their expertise on which one they would use in any given circumstance. If they were actually in the studio with you there are so many things they would probably do differently based on your specific needs in that specific moment.

Pre-mixed IR's is like seasoning a meal before you even know what you're eating. You can have a good guess, but it probably won't be ideal.

There's more marketing than anything else, I agree, but I'm pretty sure lots of users find premixed irs helpful anyway.

I personally only use only single mics and blend them myself.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Making sure your product has a bunch of mixes isn't really marketing, its product design.

And I'd say someone making Pre-mixed IR of a Mesa Boogie OS 4x12 knows what's about to get eaten. They might not know EVERY ingredient and EXACT preparation, but they know beef cooked over an open flame with plenty of fat is involved.

IRs are like presets. And while technically "engineering" is necessarily involved with the creation of either, it also seems like not everyone creating either has the knowledge or skill to deserve the label "engineer". I sure ain't gonna use any of the forts "engineered" by my kids as a defensive shelter.

IMO, it’s very subjective. I don’t personally find preprocessed IR’s useful at all. Even if I left 2 mics to blend up on a cab in a studio, I’d almost always be tinkering with the blend based on what i’m doing. The reality is I’d be adjusting way more than that case by case.

The most useful thing for me is to have various mics and positions, and ideally speakers, and to replicate what I’d do in the real world.

I know people like having pre processed IR’s but for my needs they’re a bit of a nightmare. It just makes things a lottery as to whether they’ll work or not, and often what you need is somewhere in between. You quickly land on a situation where different IR’s sound vastly different while auditioning and you can’t hone in on what you’re after as easily. IMO blending and processing IR’s is so simple that it shouldn’t require someone to do it (especially without knowing what the intention is). But YMMV.

 

[Orvillain]

Unless two engineers make IR's of the same cab, using the same gear, then you quite literally have no ability to ascribe tonal differences to the engineer.

How would you know if a certain high frequency response was due to an engineer choice, or just speaker difference, or mic response difference? You wouldn't. Unless they told you.

Thus... marketing.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Unless two engineers make IR's of the same cab, using the same gear, then you quite literally have no ability to ascribe tonal differences to the engineer.

How would you know if a certain high frequency response was due to an engineer choice, or just speaker difference, or mic response difference? You wouldn't. Unless they told you.

Thus... marketing.

That's kinda like saying I have no idea if I actually like Daniel Lanois as a producer or if he just happened to work with the right artists, the right gear, in the right studios, at the right time?

The skilled engineers in the room want minimally processed, single mic IRs that they can manipulate as they would a mic'ed cab. But the engineers are also the ones least in need of commercially available IRs since they are the ones capable of capturing their own. Seems to me there is going to be a MUCH bigger need for processed IRs in the same way there's actually a MUCH bigger need for EZDrummer than there is for Superior Drummer.

What some IR vendors have figured out is that whatever the need is, there is an even bigger MARKET for "This (IR/Poweramp/cab/plugin/sticker-for-your-computer) is the One Trick to make playing your guitar through a computer sound and MORE IMPORTANTLY FEEL like you are playing through a tube amp".

 

[Orvillain]

That's kinda like saying I have no idea if I actually like Daniel Lanois as a producer or if he just happened to work with the right artists, the right gear, in the right studios, at the right time?

The skilled engineers in the room want minimally processed, single mic IRs that they can manipulate as they would a mic'ed cab. But the engineers are also the ones least in need of commercially available IRs since they are the ones capable of capturing their own. Seems to me there is going to be a MUCH bigger need for processed IRs in the same way there's actually a MUCH bigger need for EZDrummer than there is for Superior Drummer.

What some IR vendors have figured out is that whatever the need is, there is an even bigger MARKET for "This (IR/Poweramp/cab/plugin/sticker-for-your-computer) is the One Trick to make playing your guitar through a computer sound and MORE IMPORTANTLY FEEL like you are playing through a tube amp".

Demonstrate to me how you know whether that (for example) 3kHz boost in your favourite IR came from a choice the engineer made, or whether it was a by-product of the speaker/cab/ir physical properties.

People buy EZDrummer more than Superior Drummer because it is cheaper, helps with songwriting (which is actually the main problem musicians have, wayyyyy before the mix even comes into it), and fundamentally it does not take too much work to get something done.

That's why people buy IR packs too. Because it is easier - strangely enough - to plod through lists of IR's (whether that is using a nice speaker looking interface to do it or not) than it is to learn how to use an EQ.

I could probably accept that when you buy an IR, you're deliberately making a choice to take on board the EQ and tonality choices made by the creator. But what I'm arguing against is this idea that making IR's is an artform. It isn't. There is a right and a wrong to it.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Amp and pedal threads

Digital threads

 

[ian_dissonance]

Amp and pedal threads

Digital threads

Caveman vs engineer

 

[JiveTurkey]

Caveman vs engineer

Could be?

 

[HotRats]

But what I'm arguing against is this idea that making IR's is an artform. It isn't. There is a right and a wrong to it.

You are arguing against an idea nobody advocated for, though.

I used the words

After all IRs can be seen as an artistic product that carries the sound signature of the single vendor.

Artistic and artform are two very different things.

 

[ian_dissonance]

Now who’s being pedantic?