I Gotta Wonder About Fractal's, er, "Perception"

[gdhi11]

I was in the consumer electronics industry from 1986 till 2020. When the market and banks crashed in 2007-2008 the entire CES industry went almost completely crickets for a while. Saw tons of layoffs and massive cutbacks in all areas of the market - professional, commercial, marine, consumer, automotive, etc. all took huge hits from the brands working on new lines all the way to the dealers making their livings off of sales of the brands.

EXCEPT!!!!!!!!

The Praise & Worship sector NEVER slowed down a blink and when the smoke had cleared by the turn of the decade some would say P&W saved a good portion of the Commercial and MI markets and everything associated with them.

GOOD LORD!!!! The number of P&W meets AVI magazines that started popping up around that time....

I see a few are still going strong.

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Most Praise houses have better PAs than the local clubs in our area. It's kind of wild. Silent stage is literally a Praise concept carried out to the rest of the world. I see more high end gear going to praise players than anywhere else. It wouldn't be uncommon to see a Tyler guitar or a PRS wood library on your local Praise stage.

 

[Achilles]

It wouldn't be uncommon to see a Tyler guitar or a PRS wood library on your local Praise stage.

I think Bob Taylor created his top line of guitars with major P&W player budgets in mind.
I mean, the 900 Series starts at $5,800 for the most entry level model.

 

[timbuck3]

I think Bob Taylor created his top line of guitars with major P&W player budgets in mind.
I mean, the 900 Series starts at $5,800 for the most entry level model.

WTF?

 

[Achilles]

WTF?

Not literally silly. Figuratively, considering the topic.

 

[Orvillain]

The Praise & Worship sector NEVER slowed down a blink and when the smoke had cleared by the turn of the decade some would say P&W saved a good portion of the Commercial and MI markets and everything associated with them.

Just goes to show how much money there is in being delusional.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

It seemed relevant given you were trying to draw a distinction between people who need day gigs to afford shiny new gear, and presumably people who don't need day gigs to afford shiny gear?

The point is - most younger musicians and bands still have to work when on tour. The days of the Rolling Stones and Black Sabbath lounging around doing coke and destroying hotel rooms are just utterly utterly gone.

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The point to me is - professional touring musicians still have to work jobs, regardless of whether they get free gear or not.

Completely focusing on the wrong part.

I already said my point was that it takes a day gig for most guys to have shiny gear.

And as far as the change in way biz is done is concerned in my world its still super easy.

You are what pays your bills.
Just because a UK band opens for Dream Theater at Wembley means nothing more than that. Unless they done the whole Europe leg. Which likely was too expensive.

In other words when i do the music thing i cant afford shiny gear fir that i need a day gig, like while being at THD or like now doing 25-30students a week. But if you wanna get technical at that point im a sales monkey or guitar teacher.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

A free unit given away, that through its exposure generates a number of subsequent retail sales, is easily written off at tax time as a Sales & Marketing expense. So technically some can SAY they don't do freebies......



Ed, was just thinking about the whole 'time flies' thing. How many years has it been since you and I talked on the phone about the Univalve I got from you when you were at THD? Seems like a freaking lifetime ago!

Hmmm… is that then kinda like lies of omission lol

Oh the Univalve days that’s been like 2 decades. Starting to feel old right now.

 

[deadpool_25]

My takeaway from this thread is you can headline a tour across 25 countries in 8 months and (a) not have it considered a world tour and (b) still need a "day job".

Fuck touring.

 

[DrewJD82]

Hot-take inbound: Neural DSP wants everyone to buy their stuff--that's why they are bigger on plugins than they were on hardware. Literally, anyone with a computer can use Neural's stuff with minimal investment. Quite frankly, I half expect Neural to put out hardware versions of their plugins like UAD just did at some point in the future. They might make professional-level stuff, but they aren't just making it for professionals, which is part of the reason I think Fractal is still different.

I’d be willing to bet that Cliff never intended for the AxeFX to reach further than studios or the racks of guys who were already using Eventides, Lexicon’s or TC gear. After having my hands on some of those units and knowing Cliff started the AxeFX in the early 00’s, with the G-Force being the only real piece of gear attempting to cross a bridge between studio quality gear and guitar rigs at that time, the UI makes absolute sense to me from that standpoint.

Add to that the fact there has never been any crazy marketing, I believe the extent of what I’ve seen was a 1-page ad in guitar mags a couple times. Never saw any forum banners or giveaways, but I’ve now witnessed 13 years or so of what’s happened on this forum in the last year; word of mouth, clips and videos getting people to buy a Fractal unit.

And it’s also not like Fractal has ramped up production to keep up with demand. I think the one person in the world who knows more than anyone else that Fractal can sell more Fractal units if they wanted to is Cliff. While some UI suggestions make their way through, Cliff’s not on here talking UI specs with Laxu (I think the ratio is 125 Laxu UI posts merits one Cliff response), he’s going to town on amp accuracy and specs with James and Mirror.

You see a lot of stuff like “If Fractal expects to compete….”, “If Fractal wants to stay in the race…”, “I’m not buying a Fractal until they improve the UI”, I don’t believe for a second that any of that is what motivates Cliff to do what he does. I think things like the MCF, Ax8, FX8 and FM’s are a response to the general consumer market picking up on it, but I’m still not convinced the target audience is the same as Line 6 or NDSP.

tl;dr- I agree.

(Cliff, blink twice if I’m right)

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Not quite.

A company would already have deducted the expenses of the parts and labor to produce it. They can't "write it off" again, and call it a 'marketing expense.' It doesn't work that way.

Not even close to reality.

Since you don’t have to proof inventory during tax time you can write that off to your blue in the face.

But nit the point, which is that free gear very much exist no matter how much everyone claims to never do freebies.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

My takeaway from this thread is you can headline a tour across 25 countries in 8 months and (a) not have it considered a world tour and (b) still need a "day job".

Fuck touring.

It used to be done to sell albums now its done to sell shirts.
But 79 shows in 8 month aint a heavy schedule.
When i still worked last one i did which now is eons ago (7 years) was 74 shows in 3 month (Europe only).
And i netted only about a grand.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Just goes to show how much money there is in being delusional.

And just to further my point a
Amateur/semi-pro not a value judgement.

Who i was thinking of with Pro is the guys in the trenches that do 5 gigs a week from casuals, cruise ships to cover gigs.
Often with less shiny gear.

As i said only times i do shiny is during day gig times. Or when my BS sales pitch is strong.

Theres also a super strong disconnect with how us Europeans view things.

Maybe that’ll illustrate…
When i came back to where i was raised in Germany after not having lived here for over 3 decades i went to the one remaining brick and mortar store fir an Andy Timmons workshop.
I was on the guestlist and in typical German fashion i got the theres no list even we (the store employees) don’t get list.
Look again…oh youre there, hiw is that possible.

The want to put stuff on pedastals…it’s real…

 

[Bruce]

It used to be done to sell albums now its done to sell shirts.
But 79 shows in 8 month aint a heavy schedule.
When i still worked last one i did which now is eons ago (7 years) was 74 shows in 3 month (Europe only).
And i netted only about a grand.

You’ll make more money playing local bars and sleeping in your own bed.

 

[la szum]

Silent stage is literally a Praise concept carried out to the rest of the world.

Kind of ironic that they ended up being in League with the Debul all along.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

You’ll make more money playing local bars and sleeping in your own bed.

Well fwiw aside a few places in the US that is a hard pass for me these days.

The last tour i wasnt gonna do but my (at the time wife) never been on tour really wanted it so i just figured a few month if expenses paid drinking wouldn’t be the worst i could do that summer.

 

[la szum]

My takeaway from this thread is you can headline a tour across 25 countries in 8 months and (a) not have it considered a world tour and (b) still need a "day job".

Fuck touring.

Yup. You can actually accumulate more debt on a national or international tour. Profit is not guaranteed.

Everyone else (in your crew, at the venues you book, the promoters, agents, etc. ) gets paid before
the artist sees any $$$.

Artist/creator economies are so fucked. It's not limited too just musicians, but authours, painters, poets,
and anyone else dumb or naive enough to have no choice but do what they are.

 

[Bruce]

Well fwiw aside a few places in the US that is a hard pass for me these days.

The last tour i wasnt gonna do but my (at the time wife) never been on tour really wanted it so i just figured a few month if expenses paid drinking wouldn’t be the worst i could do that summer.

I’ll stick to the bars. Easy money, low stress. If I wanna go away, I’m getting on a plane and laying on a beach for a week getting fatter than I ought to. For a tour of any kind I’d need to see and smell some real money, otherwise I’m chasing someone else’s dream for them. Big stages don’t impress me, money impresses me but I understand everyone is after something different and at a different stage of their life, too.

 

[la szum]

I’d be willing to bet that Cliff never intended for the AxeFX to reach further than studios or the racks of guys who were already using Eventides, Lexicon’s or TC gear. After having my hands on some of those units and knowing Cliff started the AxeFX in the early 00’s, with the G-Force being the only real piece of gear attempting to cross a bridge between studio quality gear and guitar rigs at that time, the UI makes absolute sense to me from that standpoint.

Add to that the fact there has never been any crazy marketing, I believe the extent of what I’ve seen was a 1-page ad in guitar mags a couple times. Never saw any forum banners or giveaways, but I’ve now witnessed 13 years or so of what’s happened on this forum in the last year; word of mouth, clips and videos getting people to buy a Fractal unit.

And it’s also not like Fractal has ramped up production to keep up with demand. I think the one person in the world who knows more than anyone else that Fractal can sell more Fractal units if they wanted to is Cliff. While some UI suggestions make their way through, Cliff’s not on here talking UI specs with Laxu (I think the ratio is 125 Laxu UI posts merits one Cliff response), he’s going to town on amp accuracy and specs with James and Mirror.

You see a lot of stuff like “If Fractal expects to compete….”, “If Fractal wants to stay in the race…”, “I’m not buying a Fractal until they improve the UI”, I don’t believe for a second that any of that is what motivates Cliff to do what he does. I think things like the MCF, Ax8, FX8 and FM’s are a response to the general consumer market picking up on it, but I’m still not convinced the target audience is the same as Line 6 or NDSP.

tl;dr- I agree.

(Cliff, blink twice if I’m right)

Yup. Anyone assuming Cliff just wants Fractal to be another mass-produced, consumer-driven commodity
is probably missing the mark by a loooooooooooooooooooooong, looooooooooooong ways.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

I’ll stick to the bars. Easy money, low stress. If I wanna go away, I’m getting on a plane and laying on a beach for a week getting fatter than I ought to. For a tour of any kind I’d need to see and smell some real money, otherwise I’m chasing someone else’s dream for them. Big stages don’t impress me, money impresses me but I understand everyone is after something different and at a different stage of their life, too.

I hear you…i just cant muster a micro shit to play with local guys what the local audiences expect so i just do what makes me happy. Practice and record with guys i respect and spend as much time as possible floating on the lake in Hungary.

I got the getting fat covered too. :-)

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Yup. Anyone assuming Cliff just wants Fractal to be another mass-produced, consumer-driven commodity
is probably missing the mark by a loooooooooooooooooooooong, looooooooooooong ways.

You think elves widdle those boxes together? Lol