I Gotta Wonder About Fractal's, er, "Perception"

[Bruce]

maybe not growth growth growth but more pushing the tech envelope to stay relative and compete? I mean others will catch up and surpass with the whole just fine attitude. Look at tesla or the post office...post office sucks but they think they are just fine and doing ok

I think fractal is quite relevant and they compete just fine in the market. Just because they aren’t owned by a huge company like Yamaha doesn’t mean they compete poorly. They are competing in markets they target. They do not seem to care about the 299 dollar pocket sized modeler market. I’m happy about that because their support and R&D goes into their professional products.

 

[laxu]

I think fractal is quite relevant and they compete just fine in the market. Just because they aren’t owned by a huge company like Yamaha doesn’t mean they compete poorly. They are competing in markets they target. They do not seem to care about the 299 dollar pocket sized modeler market. I’m happy about that because their support and R&D goes into their professional products.

At the same time NeuralDSP is a small company employing a bit over 50 people, but they had much better availability at launch for the QC across the globe.

I hate having to wait like 3-6 months before a new Fractal product becomes available in the EU, the mystery waitslists etc. They don't have to chase the bottom dollar segment but they could have better availability for their products. Even atm the FM9 is out of stock at G66 whereas I can buy literally any other modeler on the market right this moment if I want.

 

[Lysander]

At the same time NeuralDSP is a small company employing a bit over 50 people, but they had much better availability at launch for the QC across the globe.

Um, the QC launch was not that great - the thing was impossible to buy for months, both in Europe and the US. People were scalping units in Reverb for insane prices at the time.

Just found my Sweetwater invoice:

 

[Orvillain]

Um, the QC launch was not that great - the thing was impossible to buy for months, both in Europe and the US. People were scalping units in Reverb for insane prices at the time.

Just found my Sweetwater invoice:

View attachment 16769

This is absolutely the truth. I waited 3 months for a unit. However my friend who was a tier 2 pre-orderer, he got his unit only a few weeks before I got mine!! It was quite nuts tbh!

 

[KHAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!!!!]

Everything Fractal does is based on being the best sounding most full featured products on the market.

That doesn't really line up with the concept of economies of scale. I'm cool with that. YMMV.

 

[DLC86]

Even atm the FM9 is out of stock at G66 whereas I can buy literally any other modeler on the market right this moment if I want.

Fwiw it's out of stock in US as well, and imo that might mean we'll see an FM9 mkII Turbo announcement thread soon....

 

[Foxmeister]

At the same time NeuralDSP is a small company employing a bit over 50 people, but they had much better availability at launch for the QC across the globe.

According to Crunchbase*, NDSP is probably significantly bigger than FAS at this moment in time:

NDSP also raised a signficant amount of money from VCs, presumably most to develop the QC, so I'm not sure it is really fair to compare the QC launch to anything FAS has ever produced.

IMO, FAS really is a boutique brand, and NDSP far more "mainstream" and much closer to Line 6.

*No idea if Crunchbase figures are accurate.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

We had a saying in the chicken business: stay small, make money.
When a business grows you have to be very careful the standards of that business do not erode. Volume isn’t always a good thing.

No different in MI. When i started at the amp company it was the boss and one fulltime employee doing 300k/yr. In sales.
When i left a decade later it was 12 employess and 1.5 million/yr.
You do the math…

 

[ChordInversion]

It's interesting how the perceptions of some vocal people turn into conventional wisdom that is rarely challenged. I'm in my 50s, and I've worked in tech for a 30+ year career. I approach every piece of musical gear with the presumption that I'll figure it out, and I do. I don't attribute it to technical skill so much as to not psyching myself out or buying too deeply into internet reviews before I even start.

I got the FM-9T in December 2022 after 9 months on the wait list. It was a self-reward for a positive career step. Three things I noticed when I got started:

1. The on-unit interface did take some learning of the menus, but it wasn't exactly like trying to read ancient Sanskrit or anything. I could figure most things out as I went without the manual (which was pretty good).
2. When I wanted to really craft a sound, I was going to use the editor anyway. Not because I hated the on-unit interface, but because I didn't want to bend to the floor (or clear room on my desk and then look down/hunch over the unit). I always use the editor for all but simple adjustments when one is available. A 32" monitor is always much more pleasant to me than some little on-unit screen.
3. The sounds the unit came with, since they weren't built to impress in the context of guitar store cacophony, are pretty darn good. I didn't need to do all that much to them once I had global settings right for my environment. That saved me a lot of time.

I did buy the Cooper Carter class later on, because I play for fun and to record, and I wanted to quickly acquire some techniques that could help me. But the story of the Fractal units being hard to use never really came true for me. I also have and use a GT-1000, Ampli-Firebox, ACS-1, and Tonex, so I am not evaluating it in a vacuum. And I am definitely considering a Kemper Profiler Player to try out liquid profiles. I'm not a Fractal devotee.

 

[timbuck3]

Even with a slick gui, Fractal wouldn't come close to dominating the market for two reasons:

1. Limited production runs - Fractal products often go on a waitlist, presumably because each production run is quite small, so as to not tie up too much capital in stock.

2. Lack of a proper dealer network - you can't walk into a store to try and buy Fractal products.

IMO, both of these are part of the same problem - with a dealer/distributor network holding stock they've paid for, Fractal can increase the size of their production runs and perhaps achieve more economies of scale, but they'd also need to factor in a dealer markup, so prices would probably have to increase quite significantly (see G66 prices vs Fractal direct).

I meant dominating the forum market as in here and TOP. in volume i bet not for sure but my point which i didnt state clearly i guess is that fractal really is clearly above others in tones and effects but not in gui friendliness. So yea they wont sell as many as line6 or fender.

 

[Achilles]

Fractal really is clearly above others in tones.

Cool opinion man.

 

[gdhi11]

At the same time NeuralDSP is a small company employing a bit over 50 people, but they had much better availability at launch for the QC across the globe.

I hate having to wait like 3-6 months before a new Fractal product becomes available in the EU, the mystery waitslists etc. They don't have to chase the bottom dollar segment but they could have better availability for their products. Even atm the FM9 is out of stock at G66 whereas I can buy literally any other modeler on the market right this moment if I want.

Small companies generally have trouble getting distributors on board in markets outside their own. Fractal and Neural are technically small companies. Yamaha/Line 6 is one of the biggest companies in the music business.

Quad Cortex was NOT readily available on launch in the US at least. Also it was at least a few months late to begin with.

Fractal doesn't want to get into the p*$$ing match that is entry-level/budget equipment. I'm happy that at least one company is just going to stay professional level. It's pretty easy to tell what you're getting when you get it if that's all they serve.

Hot-take inbound: Neural DSP wants everyone to buy their stuff--that's why they are bigger on plugins than they were on hardware. Literally, anyone with a computer can use Neural's stuff with minimal investment. Quite frankly, I half expect Neural to put out hardware versions of their plugins like UAD just did at some point in the future. They might make professional-level stuff, but they aren't just making it for professionals, which is part of the reason I think Fractal is still different.

If Fractal cared about wide-spread adoption, they probably would've made some effort to port the classic Axe FX models into PC plugins at some point. I don't feel like Fractal ever cares to do that.

And btw, I'm a network engineer by trade. You couldn't pay me to take a PC on stage as my primary thing.

 

[Achilles]

They might make professional-level stuff, but they aren't just making it for professionals.

What the heck are you talking about?

 

[Whizzinby]

I was able to sell my first QC for good profit 18mos after launch because it was still operating on a backorder. Which of course offset what I lost selling #2

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

What the heck are you talking about?

I’m guessing his point is most MI companies make most of their sales with amateurs and semi pros.
You know guys that have day gigs to afford shiny expensive gear.

 

[Achilles]

I’m guessing his point is most MI companies make most of their sales with amateurs and semi pros.

Which digital amp company doesn't make most of their revenue with amateurs and weekend warriors?

 

[Lysander]

I was able to sell my first QC for good profit 18mos after launch because it was still operating on a backorder. Which of course offset what I lost selling #2

I sold mine for slightly more what i paid for it 1.5 years before, and i wasn't even trying.

 

[Achilles]

I sold mine for slightly more what i paid for it 1.5 years before, and i wasn't even trying.

Same. Slightly more and it was local so no shipping. Made the deal in a 7/11 parking lot.

 

[Orvillain]

I’m guessing his point is most MI companies make most of their sales with amateurs and semi pros.
You know guys that have day gigs to afford shiny expensive gear.

I mean.... if even Jay Postones (drummer from Tesseract) has to work a day gig whilst doing world tours.... I think the distinction is becoming more and more meaningless.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Which digital amp company doesn't make most of their revenue with amateurs and weekend warriors?

Not just digital…