Hybrid Rig Setups!

[laxu]

The Studio Preamp is a perfect piece and one that using a captured facsimile of with nothing of comparable value to adjust would drive me bonkers.

This to me is the final frontier with these hybrid setups. I wish modeling manufacturers would have a better solution for this. I know this is Orvillain's thread (ducks) but the Kemper solution (Monitor Cabinet Out iirc) is spectacular for this "problem".

What does the Kemper do differently for this?

 

[EOengineer]

The Studio Preamp is a perfect piece and one that using a captured facsimile of with nothing of comparable value to adjust would drive me bonkers.

I personally get a chuckle from the ketchup-on-filet-mignon factor.

Exploring this option is rooted in playing to the strengths of each technology and possibly sidestepping some of the limitations.

The Studio Preamp is a tonal treasure trove but for the most part you can only get one tone at a time. It is the hardest to balance the clean and dirty tones out of any of the Mark series circuits I’ve experienced. Plus there are mid gain tones in there that I love.

IMO this is a textbook scenario where capture tech can shine. Let me capture my clean, edge of breakup, mid gain, crunch, and lead tones.

Whether or not it’s possible - not sure yet. Worth exploring IMO.

 

[JiveTurkey]

What does the Kemper do differently for this?

Cab emulation on one out, no emulation on the other. Same FX chain. Obviously it's running on old tech and not near as flexible of a chain but I could always do my dumb trumpet crap with it so it was good in that regard.

I personally get a chuckle from the ketchup-on-filet-mignon factor.

Exploring this option is rooted in playing to the strengths of each technology and possibly sidestepping some of the limitations.

The Studio Preamp is a tonal treasure trove but for the most part you can only get one tone at a time. It is the hardest to balance the clean and dirty tones out of any of the Mark series circuits I’ve experienced. Plus there are mid gain tones in there that I love.

IMO this is a textbook scenario where capture tech can shine. Let me capture my clean, edge of breakup, mid gain, crunch, and lead tones.

Whether or not it’s possible - not sure yet. Worth exploring IMO.

I don't disagree. And I 100% feel you on "look at all the options that are somehow not all accessible in the way you want given the pile of toggles, modes and graphic eqs onboard". I can see the merit in this approach; I would just want to tweak something ALWAYS that isn't going to be available on a 3 knob Tone-X pedal.

 

[EOengineer]

I don't disagree. And I 100% feel you on "look at all the options that are somehow not all accessible in the way you want given the pile of toggles, modes and graphic eqs onboard". I can see the merit in this approach; I would just want to tweak something ALWAYS that isn't going to be available on a 3 knob Tone-X pedal.

Yeah that’s a fair point, in particular with the Mark stuff where we might adjust the 5 band to fit the room on gigs that could be an issue. Given current limitations I’d probably create a couple banks of presets with differing GEQ settings IF initial tests show promise.

I’m really hoping L6 eventually models both channels of the IIC+ and renders this all moot - because I’d happily run that into the 2:90 and call it a day.

Given its limitations I’m not even sure I’d keep the Studio Preamp at that point. I hate rack gear.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

This to me is the final frontier with these hybrid setups. I wish modeling manufacturers would have a better solution for this. I know this is Orvillain's thread (ducks) but the Kemper solution (Monitor Cabinet Out iirc) is spectacular for this "problem".

Well..Kemper monitor off function is great when you use full models, but when you use preamp captures, you need to bake something in the cab section that resembles the EQ curve of what a poweramp does.

QC is closest afiak, I simply put a poweramp capture in a seperate parh and feed that to the desk. Downside…captures sum to mono..so not the best for recording imho.
(I simply use different presets for recording/direct use only.)

So in my mind 3 scenario’s for digital preamps into tubepowersections:
- Handle the foh with a line output from the poweramp + IR
- Use an IR with a poweramp baked in (sort of, impendance curves will never be 100% afaik)
- seperate path to foh that includes a modeled/captured powersection. (So no modeled powersection to the actual one)

Mind..what i call “preamp” is not a full model of an amp. Just the preamp, i capture them via the send.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Yeah I don't do captures/profiles so I am more about getting a tube preamp into a digital power amp back end. The reverse of what you are describing. I'd gladly take a solution for both scenarios

 

[laxu]

I personally get a chuckle from the ketchup-on-filet-mignon factor.

Exploring this option is rooted in playing to the strengths of each technology and possibly sidestepping some of the limitations.

The Studio Preamp is a tonal treasure trove but for the most part you can only get one tone at a time. It is the hardest to balance the clean and dirty tones out of any of the Mark series circuits I’ve experienced. Plus there are mid gain tones in there that I love.

IMO this is a textbook scenario where capture tech can shine. Let me capture my clean, edge of breakup, mid gain, crunch, and lead tones.

Whether or not it’s possible - not sure yet. Worth exploring IMO.

In theory all Mesa Mark series would be better as their digital counterparts because you are not limited by the single graphic EQ, or other shared features, and can save your settings easily.

But in practice they are always a pain in the ass because the knob vs graphic EQ is always on different views or blocks. Helix is twice as bad because the graphic EQ is buried as sliders several pages deep into the Mark IV models.

For captures my beef is always that if I use a different guitar, cab etc I'd like to adjust something differently and the generic EQs on the captures are iffy at best, often not adjusting the right frequencies and so on.

 

[laxu]

Well..Kemper monitor off function is great when you use full models, but when you use preamp captures, you need to bake something in the cab section that resembles the EQ curve of what a poweramp does.

QC is closest afiak, I simply put a poweramp capture in a seperate parh and feed that to the desk. Downside…captures sum to mono..so not the best for recording imho.
(I simply use different presets for recording/direct use only.)

So in my mind 3 scenario’s for digital preamps into tubepowersections:
- Handle the foh with a line output from the poweramp + IR
- Use an IR with a poweramp baked in (sort of, impendance curves will never be 100% afaik)
- seperate path to foh that includes a modeled/captured powersection. (So no modeled powersection to the actual one)

Mind..what i call “preamp” is not a full model of an amp. Just the preamp, i capture them via the send.

4th option, if the poweramp supports it, would be feeding a speaker out tapped line-out back to the modeler, put a cab sim on that then out of the box to the mixer. Then your real poweramp behavior would be part of the sound even on the cab sim setup.

 

[JiveTurkey]

4th option, if the poweramp supports it, would be feeding a speaker out tapped line-out back to the modeler, put a cab sim on that then out of the box to the mixer. Then your real poweramp behavior would be part of the sound even on the cab sim setup.

You can do that with the Suhr. I haven't tried to test for phase issues.

 

[EOengineer]

For captures my beef is always that if I use a different guitar, cab etc I'd like to adjust something differently and the generic EQs on the captures are iffy at best, often not adjusting the right frequencies and so on.

Yeah I don’t think captures are well suited if the rest of your rig is variable. When I’m creating captures, it’s basically a per-guitar, per-stompbox endeavor.

I don’t think that’s unusual though, as I wouldn’t plug into my 800 and not adjust the settings or toggle a bright cap if I’m rotating between Tele and LPs.

Given capture tech’s current limitations, you have to know exactly what you’re going for and if you need other sounds or variations, you need other captures to cover that ground. That’s how I treat it anyway.

 

[laxu]

Cab emulation on one out, no emulation on the other. Same FX chain. Obviously it's running on old tech and not near as flexible of a chain but I could always do my dumb trumpet crap with it so it was good in that regard.

The Hotone Ampero 2 range also has this feature. You can even choose if you want Cab block, IR block or both Cab+IR blocks disabled on either output.

This works if you are running into a neutral poweramp, but if it's a guitar poweramp you'd probably want to use e.g preamp only model vs full amp model, again leading you to run two separate paths and blocks.

The Hotone has a poweramp sim block which could be another solution if you want to just run a preamp. The poweramp sim block is probably what they use on some of their "HQ" amp models where you can pick e.g power tube types and adjust some other stuff. It's decent.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I think big stages like that are where IEMs are the most helpful because wherever you are on stage it brings all your monitoring right to your ears, so distance becomes a non-issue

I actually still vastly prefer typical monitoring on bigger stages. But for obvious reasons, it's better gotta be decent monitoring.

 

[JiveTurkey]

You can do that with the Suhr. I haven't tried to test for phase issues.

Let me also add that I have presets to try for this but the potential for phase issues + having to reroute cables in my jam room + frustrating differences in power amp modes/volumes in Boogie land keep me saying screw it and not bothering with this particular "journey".

 

[newpedals]

Currently in my mancave, KPA profiles of the preamp of this amp: (captured via the fx loop)
View attachment 40829

Into the return of these 2:
View attachment 40828

Live I use the QC, running captures of the same preamp into (whatever) combos I bring…or in 4cm with the Dumble clone.
What is an interesting observation in 4cm: wether I use the capture or the actual preamp…don’t matter to me at all.

My usual mancave setup is this (with a cab not in the picture on the other side of the room)
Same preampcaptures into an Engl 2x50 el 84 powersection.
View attachment 40831

So I use digital preamps instead of full models into tube power/cab…I can’t imagine ever going back on that tbh.
If you have the gear to try it…highly recommended!

Studio overdrive amp: Wow. Is that Dumble-ish? Why does it not have any power/ standby switches?

I did not know that Keeley sold premodified pedals (with the box). I thought that he only modified pedals which were sent to him. Nice.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Yeah I don't do captures/profiles so I am more about getting a tube preamp into a digital power amp back end. The reverse of what you are describing. I'd gladly take a solution for both scenarios

Many ways to Rome :)

Im pretty biased against SS powersections to make things louder tbh…so consider tube power as a musthave.

What i like about captures is that no matter the digital platform, no matter if i use analog..always the same sounds. Ive chosen to only use captures of my amps/pedals in the digital world. Sure..limits…but in a good way for me. No more tonesearching…and the workings of digital easily verifyable

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Studio overdrive amp: Wow. Is that Dumble-ish? Why does it not have any power/ standby switches?

I did not know that Keeley sold premodified pedals (with the box). I thought that he only modified pedals which were sent to him. Nice.

Yeah..Dumble clone with corcksniffers parts, handbuild.

Switches are on the back

 

[JiveTurkey]

Many ways to Rome :)

Im pretty biased against SS powersections to make things louder tbh…so consider tube power as a musthave.

What i like about captures is that no matter the digital platform, no matter if i use analog..always the same sounds. Ive chosen to only use captures of my amps/pedals in the digital world. Sure..limits…but in a good way for me. No more tonesearching…and the workings of digital easily verifyable

Well and in my case; my digital back end isn't getting amplified by me for self-monitoring so much as sending to FOH. It's a way to grab the full tube amp at the send and process the power amp, fx and cab emulation to send to FOH while I am also sending a feed with power amp amp emulation back to the fx return of the amp.

 

[EOengineer]

Well and in my case; my digital back end isn't getting amplified so much as sending to FOH. It's a way to grab the full tube amp at the send and process the power amp, fx and cab emulation to send to FOH while I am also sending a feed with power amp amp emulation back to the fx return of the amp.

Are you using the slave out at all? I use mine on the Dual Rectifier and Mark III, both are killer hitting an IR so long as there’s a speaker load on the amp.

 

[newpedals]

Yeah..Dumble clone with corcksniffers parts, handbuild.

Switches are on the back

Ok. I assumed it was so advanced that it senses when you can start playing, and lights the LED after it has "readied the tubes" for you. I am always fascinated by electronics.

If not now, we may have something like this in the future..

 

[JiveTurkey]

Are you using the slave out at all? I use mine on the Dual Rectifier and Mark III, both are killer hitting an IR so long as there’s a speaker load on the amp.

I looked at it as an option but same general "issue". Not a tap after the poweramp so you're still compensating.