Here comes Kemper. Bye Felicias

[Sascha Franck]

Gain + Bright Cap pre Profile.
Tonestack usually post Profile.
Presence + Resonance post profile

At least theoretically, he could as well have used an access point between whatever drive stages (of the underlying base amps), such as to simulate anything happening between pre- and poweramp. I'm not saying that's happening, but it might be possible.

 

[Sascha Franck]

And USB audio? I always thought the kemper didn't have it due to hardware limitations, but now 12 years after its release it gets added with a firmware update? That's a basic feature that should have been there from the beginning, adding it now feels like a serious issue on their development cycle, not something to be proud of.

I would basically agree. Totally even. But, just hypothetically: What about all this being an incredible marketing stunt Christoph Kemper is pulling off? Just think of the editor, do you really think it wasn't possible to release an editor earlier? Then, from all I know, there's also been a huge reverb (and delay?) update. So, why is CK holding all these back for so long? It's certainly not a previous lack of programming skills. So it must be something else.

Not that I'd have any real answer to that question, but when you look at the price development of the Kemper over the last 12 years, I'm sure you will have a very, very hard time finding any digital device that held it's value even remotely as well. Heck, even outside of Corona, the Kemper prices went up here and there. And you can bet that with this new update, the prices again won't drop for a long while to come - with some new sales being created very likely.

So, while this is pure speculation, the entire story could as well be a prime example of most excellent marketing.

 

[James Freeman]

simulate anything happening between pre- and poweramp... but it might be possible.

Impossible, unless the Kemper does full component modeling of the preamp and poweramp separately.
But in that case it's not profiling anymore but tone matching of a fully modeled amps.

When you capture a cranked amp like a Plexi or a Vox which is mostly poweramp distortion, the Kemper can't possibly separate preamp from poweramp distortion by any algorithm, what it does is match the harmonic content as a whole.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Impossible, unless the Kemper does full component modeling of the preamp and poweramp separately.
But in that case it's not profiling anymore but tone matching of a fully modeled amps.

Well, I guess that by now it's pretty safe to say that the KPA is using some baseline models and a clever way of match EQ-ing anyway. So who knows whether CK might have split up those amps already?

 

[DLC86]

I would basically agree. Totally even. But, just hypothetically: What about all this being an incredible marketing stunt Christoph Kemper is pulling off? Just think of the editor, do you really think it wasn't possible to release an editor earlier? Then, from all I know, there's also been a huge reverb (and delay?) update. So, why is CK holding all these back for so long? It's certainly not a previous lack of programming skills. So it must be something else.

Not that I'd have any real answer to that question, but when you look at the price development of the Kemper over the last 12 years, I'm sure you will have a very, very hard time finding any digital device that held it's value even remotely as well. Heck, even outside of Corona, the Kemper prices went up here and there. And you can bet that with this new update, the prices again won't drop for a long while to come - with some new sales being created very likely.

So, while this is pure speculation, the entire story could as well be a prime example of most excellent marketing.

I don't have the answer either, but they've always been good at marketing for sure. Heck, they convinced a lot of people they could get an exact replica of their amp just by feeding some strange noises!

(Just joking... or maybe not)

 

[northern_fox]

Well, I guess that by now it's pretty safe to say that the KPA is using some baseline models and a clever way of match EQ-ing anyway. So who knows whether CK might have split up those amps already?

A good point actually that I forgot about

 

[the-trooper]

I’m guessing more will be added considering iterative software updates seems to be the new norm in this industry.

Probably. There will also probably be a lot of disappointed folks when they see there are models for only 15, 20, 30... classic amps and their favorite one is missing, and then try one that's there that could work, but it doesn't work as they expected it to work...

 

[Orvillain]

I'm hoping this is an interesting stop-gap before they release Profiler or Profiling 2.0 - the core profiling tech just isn't close enough (it never was tbh) and no amount of bright-cap tweakery is going to improve that.

I'd be interested in trying it out though, but I don't think I'd buy another Kemper at this stage.

 

[laxu]

To me this sounds like EQ with a twist. By giving starting points of "this amp had the knobs at these positions" it can maybe EQ it in a more authentic way when you apply how a typical tonestack works. I'm going to take a guess that it might even put that EQ in a different position based on if it's a Fender or Marshall tone stack.

I really don't know how that is patentable but then again more stupid stuff has been granted before.

Also I had no idea Kemper did not have USB interface capabilities. It's pretty damn weak shit that the hw was there but they took 12 years to write a driver for it.

PS. It seems ToneJunkieTV can actually present a thought without 10 minutes of rambling around it.

 

[Orvillain]

It seems ToneJunkieTV can actually present a thought without 10 minutes of rambling around it.

Balderdash!

 

[James Freeman]

So who knows whether CK might have split up those amps already?

At 14:38 Kemper says the they did NOT create full models of the amps (gain stages, etc), just these specific small segments (gain, tonestack, presence), so that's another reason to believe they are pre/post filters.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

tbf when using the tone controls, things quickly fall apart. So while I’d have preferred to seem the modelling accuracy updated this was definitely something worthwhile for them to do.

It’s still probably not the sort of thing I’d reach for a profiler for - I see profiles strongest point being the fact they match a source tone, not the ability to adjust after the fact. There are better tools if you want to tinker around and dial in a tone.

Some of the other updates just kind of demonstrate how Kemper runs things from essentially one mad scientist rather than a more democratic team system. There’s pro’s and con’s to each way, and it’s quite nice when a product is a clear reflection of the person who created it.

Either way, nice for them to have capturing available from the editor, USB audio, and the other improvements. All things their customers asked for and they listened and delivered. I wonder if capturing from the editor (and the store in rig manager) is a precursor to a plugin/SW version of a kemper?

Cool they’re still developing for it - I really think kemper is stronger with less products and software versions to support. If they have to juggle multiple versions with different tech, or even certain paid extras it would add so much complication to things.

 

[FractalAudio]

I don't know if he mentions a new patent or just his current patent that is active until 2040?
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20210058049A1/

interesting because that patent infringes on my patent:

US11164551B2 - Amplifier matching in a digital amplifier modeling system - Google Patents

In one example, a method to match a digital amplifier model to a real guitar amplifier comprises obtaining an amplifier output filter and an amplifier input filter for the real guitar amplifier, using the amplifier output filter and a model output filter to obtain a corrective output filter...

patents.google.com

 

[Jarick]

I want to see and hear it in practice. It is a cool concept, just not sure how well it works.

I would think the EQ should be before the profile so it impacts the gain? I don’t know how amps work though.

While I don’t love the Kemper in practice I think it’s really cool how it’s a different approach to capturing a sound. Rather than modeling the electronic components it manipulates the waveform like a synth.

 

[James Freeman]

interesting because that patent infringes on my patent:

US11164551B2 - Amplifier matching in a digital amplifier modeling system - Google Patents

In one example, a method to match a digital amplifier model to a real guitar amplifier comprises obtaining an amplifier output filter and an amplifier input filter for the real guitar amplifier, using the amplifier output filter and a model output filter to obtain a corrective output filter...

patents.google.com

I've seen your patent.
There ought to be some overlap with basic EQ utilization, I'm not surprised.
I often use EQ sandwich myself, I measure with pink noise at -70dB for Pre (linear region) and -10db for Post, works really well.

 

[DrewJD82]

interesting because that patent infringes on my patent:

US11164551B2 - Amplifier matching in a digital amplifier modeling system - Google Patents

In one example, a method to match a digital amplifier model to a real guitar amplifier comprises obtaining an amplifier output filter and an amplifier input filter for the real guitar amplifier, using the amplifier output filter and a model output filter to obtain a corrective output filter...

patents.google.com

I was wondering about this last night as I remember this patent from a couple years ago. I just assumed Kemper did something different.

 

[Whizzinby]

Because it's easier (and more fun) dealing with less profiles.

That’s kind of my point. If it’s harder and less fun dealing with more profiles, and the answer is to underlay a model with the profile, you could just use a model to begin with and save the time, effort, and money fooling with the profile altogether.

But like I say, I’m still not entirely clear what this is based on the limited information we have, and maybe more importantly my limited understanding of the underlying tech.

 

[mbenigni]

I'll be really curious to hear everyone's thoughts once this update is out in the wild. I can't help but feel the Liquid Profiling concept is being oversold a bit (or interpreted as something it isn't, quite.) I just don't know that additional DSP applied to a profile can ever make for realistic responses for the full range of controls for even a majority of amplifiers. Moreover, I expect the results will necessarily be dependent on the quality of the profile in question.

I am really surprised to hear that USB audio was ever a possibility from a hardware perspective. It seems odd that this wasn't leveraged in a firmware update much sooner.

That said, it's still great to see Kemper drop a firmware update that moves the needle this much for owners of a hardware product released 12 years ago. @Sascha Franck is probably right in saying that part of the motivation is to keep KPA relevant in a world of $300 ToneX, etc., but that's a win-win!

 

[Gearzilla]

I'll be really curious to hear everyone's thoughts once this update is out in the wild. I can't help but feel the Liquid Profiling concept is being oversold a bit (or interpreted as something it isn't, quite.) I just don't know that additional DSP applied to a profile can ever make for realistic responses for the full range of controls for even a majority of amplifiers. Moreover, I expect the results will necessarily be dependent on the quality of the profile in question.

Spoiler

Quad Cortex Killer

Spoiler

 

[Gearzilla]

….but seriously.

Adding more useful options at no additional end user cost to the platform is a win.