Helix Talk

So, how comes quite some plugins manage to do pitch shifting within the set buffer range?

I should've been clearer, sorry. When i mentioned "audio buffer", i was referring to the effect itself - i.e. it needs history on what was played in the past.

This introduces latency on top of what you might already have, including the audio buffer on your DAW.
 
I should've been clearer, sorry. When i mentioned "audio buffer", i was referring to the effect itself - i.e. it needs history on what was played in the past.

This introduces latency on top of what you might already have, including the audio buffer on your DAW.

From all I know, there's pitch shifting plugins working within the set buffer boundaries, not adding any additional latency.
And why would they have to? Fwiw, that's a genuine question, because I don't see any reason for that.
 
From all I know, there's pitch shifting plugins working within the set buffer boundaries, not adding any additional latency.
And why would they have to? Fwiw, that's a genuine question, because I don't see any reason for that.

FractalAudio had a good explanation on the subject a while ago.

 
I wonder how to even measure this latency as the impulse is only just under 1ms behind the dry path regardless of the setting. But you can hear the latency in the playing in X stable vs X fast
 
Doing some more tests here, hopefully itll shed some light
more capo.png
 
Xstable on top, X fast on bottom.....Both the same number of samples to initial peak, though the waveforms are slightly different. I'm so confused...They certainly don't FEEL the same
reaper_d48nwOQDPG.png
 
@FractalAudio had a good explanation on the subject a while ago.

Interesting and thanks.
Yet, we already *have* latency in digital audio, theoretically allowing whatever processes to use some history. And as said, there's some pitch shifters coming with way less latency, some even working completely within the boundaries of the set host buffer size.
In hardware land, there's some quicker pitch shifters than the HX series, too. In fact (I know, this opinion doesn't go well with some people, but hey, yolo and what not...), I think the HX pitch shifting is pretty bad (all available types). For that kind of quality, latency is horrible IMO.
 
Xstable on top, X fast on bottom.....Both the same number of samples to initial peak, though the waveforms are slightly different. I'm so confused...They certainly don't FEEL the same

That's pretty weird. They certainly don't feel the same, I also think it say so somewhere. I'd usually suspect some kind of latency compensation going on, but the different settings of the Poly Capo aren't reported to the host (some plugins do that, should you add some latency introducing elements).
 
Xstable on top, X fast on bottom.....Both the same number of samples to initial peak, though the waveforms are slightly different. I'm so confused...They certainly don't FEEL the sameView attachment 10816
That is really interesting. Does this change significantly if you pitch down more or less? Experientially, I found that there’s a sort of natural sag that happens with my baritone guitar (tuned B to B), and that the poly pitch fast mode does a great job mimicking that “latency” as compared to other pitch shifters that feel less natural.
 
Xstable on top, X fast on bottom.....Both the same number of samples to initial peak, though the waveforms are slightly different. I'm so confused...They certainly don't FEEL the sameView attachment 10816
Check the latency with peaks BEYOND the first. I expect that’s where you’ll see the difference. The first offset is probably just the necessary shift required to sample frequencies down to the lowest ones so the pitch algo can act on them.
 
I'm really scratching my head to try and figure how in the world to actually measure latency here. It appears to be so much shorter than the digitech drop, but it doesnt feel that way. I could try a few impulses in a row and see what happens I guess
 
Ok, putting some impulses like 35 ms apart, I have some different behavior, not sure if it helps, but definitely makes the second impulse look different between x fast and x stable

reaper_VvszMa2dGr.png
 
Ok, putting some impulses like 35 ms apart, I have some different behavior, not sure if it helps, but definitely makes the second impulse look different between x fast and x stable

View attachment 10843
An impulse response might not give you a reliable indicator of what you're trying to measure. The pitch algo takes some time to work out what it's doing, and the latency between the note being played vs. the pitch returned might vary as a function of the pitch, too (e.g. lower pitches may have a bit more latency than higher ones). Since an impulse response is an incredibly short pulse, it might not be giving the pitch algo enough to time to do what it does in a meaningful way for measuring latency.
 
How else could I measure? A solid tone results in the same start time regardless of setting
Use a realistic test: record a DI of some actual playing, consisting of varied notes, chords, durations, attacks. Feed the DI into the pitch block with different settings and record the output in your DAW. Then compare latency offsets by identifying key features in the original (e.g. waveform peaks) and see where they fall in the recorded outputs.

The point is that there probably won’t be a single fixed latency value for all of this, so you’ll have to look at an overall average to draw any conclusions. The pitch algorithms will likely vary a bit in perceived latency depending on how quickly and how stably the pitch can be determined, and thus how quickly and stably the output is produced. Also, it takes more time to sample low frequencies accurately than it does high frequencies, so you will need to vary your input conditions to get an overall idea of how much average latency there is.
 
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A thought that never crossed my mind until today, since I've never played one, but how is there no Boss BD-2 in the Helix universe...?

Definitely another one of the industry standards many folks would love a model of.

PS: No complaint, just a mere feature request. Haven't checked, but I'm sure it's already on Ideascale. 😉
 
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