Helix Talk

[Sascha Franck]

When I played around with it I didn't even know what NFB stood for. Interesting I preferred the generally flatter response.

Exactly the same here.
And while I can certainly admire the efforts of folks diving deeper into all this, I'm much more like a "ok, let's just bring it on and see what each parameter is doing while playing" guy.

 

[Sascha Franck]

But I also feel it's my duty to report this, how else would they improve?

It's all fine! In those areas where I know somewhat more about, I'm doing it just the same way.

 

[the-trooper]

I don't care if I get some hate on forums

Don't think anyone will hate you for finding bugs.

 

[Mooselake]

I hate to be the guy that calls out bad models all the time, I only wish the best for Line 6 and Helix, this is my modeler of choice as you know.
But I also feel it's my duty to report this, how else would they improve?
I don't think a modeler company can grow and improve if the customer feedback is nothing but kissing ass.
f**k it, I don't care if I get some hate on forums, I'd rather see a company grow and improve for the better good of everyone in the future.

I enjoy the 'technical' discussions and have learned a lot by following along (looking at FR plots is second-nature to me). I just have a different perspective (IMO, neither inferior or superior, just different). I can't speak for everyone who's said they like the Elmsley, but in my case I'm not kissing anyone's anything. If I like how something sounds when I play through it that's it's bottom line for me, and I like to provide feedback in a context that might make it back to the developer even if indirectly because positive feedback is just as important as negative feedback (I did a pun!).

Like I said, very much enjoy the discussion/data/information you and others bring to the table. Much appreciated. But I still default to the 10,000 ft view.

 

[the swede]

I hate to be the guy that calls out bad models all the time,

You don’t have to feel that way man! It’s all good

 

[Bob Zaod]

I'd rather see an honest company grow and improve for the better good of everyone in the future.

Same. I may not care about impedance curves and all that, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate and respect those who put in the time and effort to help a company improve their product(s).

 

[kartikg3]

Can some please invite DieSchmalle over here, I can't PM him on TGP.

Yes, the Elmsley NFB control is totally broken, and behaves nothing like a real NFB resistor mod on an amp.
Moreover, a NFB mod on a real amp will boost the impedance curve frequencies as the NFB goes down and you will see/hear a very clear impedance curve shaped eq boost when the NFB is open/disabled, nothing like that happens with the Elmsley.

When the Elmsley model is biased towards Class A, Pres & Depth at 0, with NFB at exactly 0.38 the amp goes bananas and dips 50dB, and the NFB control in general is nothing like a real NFB control.


View attachment 6788

View attachment 6787

Ok, since my last post was kind of a wild guess which made me feel uncomfortable - I sat down for some minutes and measured the Elmsley's frequency response.

Measurements
These preamp settings gave me a flat response to then measure the full amp:
Gain 1.0
Bass 5.0
Mids 6.6
Treble 0.0

Measurements with Depth 0.0, Presence 0.0, Bias 5.0 and NFC (Negative Feedback Control) as parameter:
View attachment 6815
We see a controlled flat response with NFC = 0.0 as expected from an amp with high negative feedback.
We see a strong impedance imprint with NFC =1.0 as expected from an amp with no negative feedback.

Context
From the release notes:
"The other new key feature of The Elmsley's power amp section is the Negative Feedback (NFB) parameter, where the amount of feedback within the power section's response can be dialed anywhere from wild and unhinged, tight and punchy, and anything in between. As with many amplifier designs, the presence and depth controls are part of this negative feedback circuit and functions to control the brilliance and resonance of the power amp, respectively. As the NFB param is reduced, the presence and depth controls' influences are also influenced, and they become effectively deactivated when the NFB knob is at zero. These interactions allow the player to create countless tonal variations to suit their needs.”

Result
This is puzzling. Depth / Presence are controls that partially reduce the negative feedback on certain frequencies - so according to my measurements and conclusions they shouldn't work with NFC at 1.0 - not at 0.0 as described in the release notes.
Or in other words: The NFC (NFB parameter) seems to have a bug - it looks flipped (1.0 should be 0.0 and 0.0 should be 1.0).

Folks like you are gems of any forum. Lucky to have you guys here to help make sense of what we hear from modelers. Respect!



I am really digging the Elmsley though!

 

[DieSchmalle]

Folks like you are gems of any forum. Lucky to have you guys here to help make sense of what we hear from modelers. Respect!

Hahaha... I was failing miserably in front of the the whole world (or at least this forum) trying to reconcile what the controls NFB and Bias say and what they actually do on the Elmsley.
But when it's time can someone please engrave on my tombstone: "At least he tried!"

 

[DieSchmalle]

I hate to be the guy that calls out bad models all the time, I only wish the best for Line 6 and Helix, this is my modeler of choice as you know.
But I also feel it's my duty to report this, how else would they improve?
I don't think a modeler company can grow and improve if the customer feedback is nothing but kissing ass.
f**k it, I don't care if I get some hate on forums, I'd rather see an honest company grow and improve for the better good of everyone in the future.

Please for the love of god don't take my push back as something personal - it's best to come to a good conclusion with a dialectic approach - thesis, antithesis, synthesis.

I'm here to play guitar and to have fun with technical stuff and ideas. And part of that is playing devil's (or corporate) advocate - for the sake of getting reasonable conclusions as a group.

And you were right btw: NFB on the Elmsley isn't doing what is says it does. Same goes for Bias. Super weird.

 

[Hush]

I hate to be the guy that calls out bad models all the time, I only wish the best for Line 6 and Helix, this is my modeler of choice as you know.
But I also feel it's my duty to report this, how else would they improve?
I don't think a modeler company can grow and improve if the customer feedback is nothing but kissing ass.
f**k it, I don't care if I get some hate on forums, I'd rather see an honest company grow and improve for the better good of everyone in the future.

I can't see how what you do as being a bad thing. You're just taking measurements and posting results. It's facts. I appreciate seeing the technical side of things, even if I only understand some of it. I'm hoping that since the Elmsley is brand new they'll do a quick update to fix the issue.

 

[holoholo]

Question...I guess I didn't know this. I tried googling. Is there a maximum of 8 parameters that be tied to a controller/footswitch?

 

[Alex Kenivel]

Question...I guess I didn't know this. I tried googling. Is there a maximum of 8 parameters that be tied to a controller/footswitch?

Yes. 64 parameters per snapshot

 

[Digital Igloo]

Question...I guess I didn't know this. I tried googling. Is there a maximum of 8 parameters that be tied to a controller/footswitch?

8 per footswitch but snapshots, footswitches, expression pedals, MIDI, and any other controllers are limited to 64 total controller assignments per preset collectively.

 

[Orvillain]

I'm here to play guitar and to have fun with technical stuff and ideas.

 

[DieSchmalle]

 

[SpaceMan]

Anyone here buy a Stomp then register it to buy Helix Native at $99? Is proof of purchase required, or just registering the product with the SN? What if you threw away the receipt? Thanks!

 

[kartikg3]

Anyone here buy a Stomp then register it to buy Helix Native at $99? Is proof of purchase required, or just registering the product with the SN? What if you threw away the receipt? Thanks!

I registered my Stomp this way, and got the discount. I didn't have the receipt either. It's important that the product is not already registered to someone else.

 

[SymphonicDischord]

Anyone here buy a Stomp then register it to buy Helix Native at $99? Is proof of purchase required, or just registering the product with the SN? What if you threw away the receipt? Thanks!

I believe all they’re looking at are the serial numbers for the discount. There’s been plenty of people who have bought used Helices and for Native for $99 because the previous owner did not take advantage of the deal.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Don't think anyone will hate you for finding bugs.

oh ye of little faith

 

[James Freeman]

The thing about Helix that will be problematic in the long term is that utterly ridiculous joystick encoder. Prime candidate to go the moment support stops two weeks after the new version is released. In the UK I frequently have issues getting parts for older line6 products so such exclusive controls in the interface seem like built in obsolescence.

If I'm not mistaken, you can do everything with only tilting and pressing the encoder.
They can add "Joystick" in the "Hold to Edit" mode, so you'll have Up/Down/Left/Right/Press, this should work just fine, just in case the joystick decides to go south after EOL.