Helix Talk

[kartikg3]

Since a month the PG has kinda slipped into my daily pondering.

PG == Pod GO?

 

[the swede]

PG == Pod GO?

Yeah buddy. I didn’t think much of it when it was released as I felt stomp has always been “right” for me.

Buuut, the recent pause I’ve had, has made me rethink a little. When it comes down to it, I think it may be the solution that I needed all this time. Maybe… I have to try. It may rekindle my inspiration and lust to play again.

There’s enough (perfect amount) switches and built in expression, which removes the “I want external things now, I don’t want external things now” endless circle for me.

Display.. larger, more practical for the way I want to play and get information.

I know the sounds I want is there… just have to try it.

 

[MindCrime]

I think the PodGo is the perfect modeler to use at home for ALL it does and for the price. Even if you buy a brand new PG,

it's capable of so many genres from metal, rock, fusion, ultra clean and more. So what if it doesn't get any more updates !

You can load up to 128 (user) cab sims and dial in some killer tones. I'm not saying it's the best, but it's worth having.

 

[ragingplatypi]

Yeah buddy. I didn’t think much of it when it was released as I felt stomp has always been “right” for me.

Buuut, the recent pause I’ve had, has made me rethink a little. When it comes down to it, I think it may be the solution that I needed all this time. Maybe… I have to try. It may rekindle my inspiration and lust to play again.

There’s enough (perfect amount) switches and built in expression, which removes the “I want external things now, I don’t want external things now” endless circle for me.

Display.. larger, more practical for the way I want to play and get information.

I know the sounds I want is there… just have to try it.

JNC is stalking you…

 

[Alex Kenivel]

I could see using a PG Wireless instead of a Stomp. I wouldn't need to power my G10 receiver or midi controller, I could use it in 4CM with an amp, could use the EQ block as a boost. I never use a volume pedal effect. I always have a reverb and comp, usually a delay. Preamp block, IR block and I'd be left with one extra block.

Not a bad idea but I'll hold out for the small rack unit of my dreams that will never come out

 

[SwirlyMaple]

Anybody else use Helix's effects for mixing and mastering? I'm a longtime user of Izotope's products, but I've got to say... to me, the rack effects in Helix, like the LA-2A compressor, Retro Reel, Deluxe Comp, and other rack-type effects sound significantly better than Izotope's built in compressors and EQs. The Izotope stuff has loads of control capabilities, but I can often get a better result in 20 seconds with the Helix models than 5 minutes of tweaking with Izotope.

Don't get me wrong. Those other plugins are still amazing for advanced editing. But it seems the old studio standards (or excellent models of them) continue to be used for good reason. I think Helix's models might be used a lot more in this capacity if pros were aware of them and approached them with an open mind.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Anybody else use Helix's effects for mixing and mastering? I'm a longtime user of Izotope's products, but I've got to say... to me, the rack effects in Helix, like the LA-2A compressor, Retro Reel, Deluxe Comp, and other rack-type effects sound significantly better than Izotope's built in compressors and EQs. The Izotope stuff has loads of control capabilities, but I can often get a better result in 20 seconds with the Helix models than 5 minutes of tweaking with Izotope.

Don't get me wrong. Those other plugins are still amazing for advanced editing. But it seems the old studio standards (or excellent models of them) continue to be used for good reason. I think Helix's models might be used a lot more in this capacity if pros were aware of them and approached them with an open mind.

I seem to remember even having an empty helix plugin doing some kind of change to the track (I guess due to how it handles up sampling).

It’s fine for something like guitars where there’s likely to be heavy saturation and a lot of processing happening, but not really something i’d like to stack up instances of all over a mix. There are also other compromises made that ensure Helix works well in real-time on a floor processor.

I think it’s fine if people are happy with using those fx in a pinch - I’ve definitely used it for weird production fx and delays and modulation across a number of things. I don’t ever see myself going straight for helix when mixing drums or vocals etc.

 

[the swede]

JNC is stalking you…

Yeah… every clip he makes with PG makes me want to have it. Even if he says “don’t get it”.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I seem to remember even having an empty helix plugin doing some kind of change to the track (I guess due to how it handles up sampling).

Just did a testrun. Soundwise, it almost stands a nulltest (in fact, I don't know why it's just almost - but human ears would very likely not be able to detect a difference). But it's adding pretty much 1ms of latency that is *not* reported to the host (tested with the AU version and Logic Pro), hence, on a bounced file there's always 1ms of an offset. That's not good once you're using it on phase critical signals as no PDC will be able to correct it in case it's not reported by the plugin. This should be fixed.

Otherwise, for single compressors and what not, I think HXN is overkill - hence, I wish some of the internal things would be available as separate plugins. However, if you are into nested delays treated in various ways, it's a great plugin.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Here is the phase response of Helix Native with no processing - usually the sign of very steep anti aliasing filters used for oversampling.
A reasonable compromise when using lots of distortion - not really an ideal trade off for all scenarios, and generally I'd avoid stuff like this except where I think its necessary. There are other ways to oversample and not mangle the phase, each way has its own pro's and con's. You don't tend to see this kind of phase response in UAD plugins (for instance).

For a simple EQ task, this is just overkill and wouldn't be anywhere close to representing the phase response in the analog domain. Not an issue for a guitar amp sim

 

[James Freeman]

Just wanted to point out that Mesa Simul-Class 2:90 poweramp is identical to a Mark IV Channel 1 poweramp, component for component.
"Modern" switch on the 2:90 is the Mark IV Lead channel poweramp (Presence Push), also modeled.
Mesa 2:90 poweramp schematic
Mesa Mark IV poweramp schematic

Cartographer preamp (not the full amp) is the best JCM800 helix has... hopefully just for the near future.
Oh how I wish...

Line 6 ->

 

[James Freeman]

Here is the phase response of Helix Native with no processing - usually the sign of very steep anti aliasing filters used for oversampling.

Helix Native is a "wrapper" for the Helix firmware, an "emulator" if you will, it runs the same DSP code.

 

[Orvillain]

View attachment 6291
Here is the phase response of Helix Native with no processing - usually the sign of very steep anti aliasing filters used for oversampling.
A reasonable compromise when using lots of distortion - not really an ideal trade off for all scenarios, and generally I'd avoid stuff like this except where I think its necessary. There are other ways to oversample and not mangle the phase, each way has its own pro's and con's. You don't tend to see this kind of phase response in UAD plugins (for instance).

For a simple EQ task, this is just overkill and wouldn't be anywhere close to representing the phase response in the analog domain. Not an issue for a guitar amp sim

Does it change at different sample rates, out of interest??

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Helix Native is a "wrapper" for the Helix firmware, an "emulator" if you will, it runs the same DSP code.

I'm presuming the Helix oversampling is global - as in upsamples at the start of the chain and down at the end rather than a block by block basis?

Does it change at different sample rates, out of interest??

96k looks least destructive, whether or not that has any appreciable difference IDK.

 

[James Freeman]

I'm presuming the Helix oversampling is global - as in upsamples at the start of the chain and down at the end rather than a block by block basis?

In 3.10 release notes regarding oversampling: "Amp and effects models have been optimized to accommodate these improvements without increasing DSP usage."

Looks like they optimized each and every model individually?

 

[Sascha Franck]

View attachment 6291
Here is the phase response of Helix Native with no processing - usually the sign of very steep anti aliasing filters used for oversampling.
A reasonable compromise when using lots of distortion - not really an ideal trade off for all scenarios, and generally I'd avoid stuff like this except where I think its necessary. There are other ways to oversample and not mangle the phase, each way has its own pro's and con's. You don't tend to see this kind of phase response in UAD plugins (for instance).

For a simple EQ task, this is just overkill and wouldn't be anywhere close to representing the phase response in the analog domain. Not an issue for a guitar amp sim

Quite interesting, thanks. Still, I think for most purposes that wouldn't be much of an issue, if at all. As said, I just did a nulltest and apart from some high frequency things, not much made it through (which would actually be sort of in line with your statement re: anti aliasing filters). You might not want to use it on delicate material such as cymbals, though.
However, when doing my testrun, I was actually more surprised over the lack of proper latency reporting. I could understand that behaviour in case you'd add latency introducing blocks (very little plugins report latency "dynamically" - Logic's internal ones for example are doing that), but an empty instance of Helix should report its latency accurately. Which it clearly doesn't.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Looks like they optimized each and every model individually?

This should be a better route for handling aliasing. Also looks like the parametric EQ cramps in the frequency domain, so probably isn't working at a higher sample rate. Not really sure what that phase response is caused by.

Actually it seems like it may even be a bug with how its behaving in Plugin Doctor - sometimes the phase response is flat, until I insert something. Certain processes definitely change the phase response with how you'd expect oversampling to (for instance some compressors appear to be oversampled).

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Bertom also showing this phase response when measuring an empty Helix Native plugin.

I agree that it may not pose any significant problems, but also, if we have a huge choice of plugins to use, I'll use the ones that are less destructive to audio when they're not supposed to be.

 

[James Freeman]

180deg phase shift at 1.5kHz?

 

[Orvillain]

That seems like a bug to me... ?