Frodebro
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Helix Talk
- Thread starter Alex Kenivel
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@Digital Igloo I just got an LT today and I’m so stoked. Play mostly bass and I love the attention Line6 gives to that side of things. Any idea if there’s a high res update in the plans for Helix Native/HX Edit? Things are awfully fuzzy on my 4K screen.
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No promises, but it's something I bug the software team about constantly.
EOengineer
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I’d love to see L6 prioritize USB audio latency in the same manner they do their hardware latency.
I’m using a newer thunderbolt/USB-C interface that has incredibly low round trip latency, but I can’t use Helix via USB as an aggregate device with it because the Helix more than doubles the latency.
I’m using a newer thunderbolt/USB-C interface that has incredibly low round trip latency, but I can’t use Helix via USB as an aggregate device with it because the Helix more than doubles the latency.
ian_dissonance
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The interface part of a modeler definitely shouldn’t feel like an afterthought.
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Sascha Franck
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Why should it?
Sascha Franck
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Fwiw, as far as low latency in modeler interfaces goes: IMO it'd be a *huge* benefit if that was in line with most up to date affordable audio interfaces.
- You could as well use it to check out software amps.
- Many people would have no need to buy another dedicated interface to do just that (or any other kind of software monitoring).
- You could possibly add a laptop (or even, say, a rackmounted Mac Mini) to your live rig and enjoy the full enchilada of plugins.
None of that is even remotely possible with the HX line of modeling units, as around 16ms of roundtrip latency (at 44.1kHz, 32 samples) simply are too much, even for most less discerning folks. Don't get me wrong, most other units don't do this very well, either, but they usually kick in at 1/2 the latency, sometimes less (heck, the GT-1000 gets as low as 5.9ms using the same settings, which already is pretty fine to check out amp modelers).
This is especially sad for a unit such as the Helix Floor/LT/Rack, which, as they have multiple I/Os (mic in included), could easily serve as the center of a little studio setup.
And to make matters worse, no, saving money can't be much of an issue. The Motu M2 comes at around 200 bucks, delivering a most excellent figure of 3.5ms RTL - and most of what you pay for it certainly isn't for the actual chip but for converters, mic preamps, displays, switches, pots and what not.
- You could as well use it to check out software amps.
- Many people would have no need to buy another dedicated interface to do just that (or any other kind of software monitoring).
- You could possibly add a laptop (or even, say, a rackmounted Mac Mini) to your live rig and enjoy the full enchilada of plugins.
None of that is even remotely possible with the HX line of modeling units, as around 16ms of roundtrip latency (at 44.1kHz, 32 samples) simply are too much, even for most less discerning folks. Don't get me wrong, most other units don't do this very well, either, but they usually kick in at 1/2 the latency, sometimes less (heck, the GT-1000 gets as low as 5.9ms using the same settings, which already is pretty fine to check out amp modelers).
This is especially sad for a unit such as the Helix Floor/LT/Rack, which, as they have multiple I/Os (mic in included), could easily serve as the center of a little studio setup.
And to make matters worse, no, saving money can't be much of an issue. The Motu M2 comes at around 200 bucks, delivering a most excellent figure of 3.5ms RTL - and most of what you pay for it certainly isn't for the actual chip but for converters, mic preamps, displays, switches, pots and what not.
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the-trooper
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Did you measure it, because I remember it being much more, like, WAY more.
Sascha Franck
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Yes, measured, using Oblique's RTL utility. I measure each and every interface with that. Under macOS that is.
EOengineer
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Are you SURE about 16ms? That’s getting into unplayable territory for many players. I’d need to take fresh measurements but IIRC I was getting ~4ms from my Quantum USB-C interface and introducing Helix pushed that up to 9ms or so. I’m usually at 44.1 with a 64 sample buffer in that rig.
ian_dissonance
Roadie
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Typo on my part. Should’ve been “shouldn’t”.
Sascha Franck
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Of course.
I just measured again, and with the latest macOS driver it's just around 15ms for the Stomp (so I need to slightly correct myself, still a very bad value):
As you can see, there's also a difference between reported and actual latency, resulting in a recording offset of 30 samples. Nothing really bad, yet, a decent driver should not create any offsets.
Defenitely.
Maybe you only looked at the output latency
TheTrueZoltan!
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Yeah, that's bad. If you are not dependent on a variable sample rate, but are able to work with a fixed 48 kHz, I would recommend uninstalling the driver and using the native CoreAudio driver instead. This will reduce the latency. Still not great, but better.
Sascha Franck
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Fwiw, under macOS, when you don't install the HX drivers and run the unit in question at 48kHz (which is its native samplerate), the latency figures are much better (still not great by any means, though), but unfortunately you're losing the option to properly work at other samplerates or to open, say, WaveLab and edit files at other samplerates. Anyhow, usually dedicated interface drivers deliver better performance compared to using macOS' stock Core Audio drivers, but with the HX family, that simply isn't the case.
No matter how you put it, the HX series audio interface drivers are pretty much terribly bad. In fact, they are by far the worst of any modeler-onboard-interface I ever tested.
No matter how you put it, the HX series audio interface drivers are pretty much terribly bad. In fact, they are by far the worst of any modeler-onboard-interface I ever tested.
Sascha Franck
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Yeah, our posts crossed. Unfortunately, pretty much all of my projects are at 44.1 and I also usually keep WaveLab opened to edit whatever files at whatever samplerates.
the-trooper
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Ah, that explains it, I'm on Windows, never measured it but it's unusable.
Note that were talking about using Helix for real time playing over PC, with plugins, not that Helix has that much latency when used as intended. Can't remember how much Leo measured, 3 ms?
We had this discussion on TOP a long time a go and concluded that Helix is an awesome recording interface but unusable real time playing interface.
EOengineer
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Just a heads up that many of your letters are in the wrong order.
I’m definitely talking about RTL, I’ll try to double check later this week, perhaps I’m using 48k and not 44.1k, which would account for some difference but I’m not getting anywhere near the latency you are seeing.
Yeah my original post was from the perspective of using Helix as essentially a MIDI controller for HX Native right now because the hardware’s USB audio performance tanks my otherwise very low latency silent rehearsal/recording rig.
IIRC the hardware latency playing through Helix normally is under 2ms if you’re using 1 path, and a bit more if using both paths. Pretty incredible.
I don’t expect L6 to hit those numbers for their audio interface but it would be nice to see something less than what we’re dealing with now. I’d love for each of the band members to just hook up via usb as one big aggregate device with low latency and be able to record uneffected guitars, effected ones, and MIDI/floorboard moves all in one shot - it just creates so much flexibility.
On my older Windows system, I have to stick with 128 samples, which does get up to 20ms system. I’m okay with recording DIs to later manipulate with Helix Native, but I move to my main audio interface when I need to mix or play VSTis.
I haven’t tried using my HX Stomp as an interface on an M1 and newer Mac. Can you run at the lowest buffer setting without pops and clicks?
I haven’t tried using my HX Stomp as an interface on an M1 and newer Mac. Can you run at the lowest buffer setting without pops and clicks?
Sascha Franck
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That's impossible. At least in case you have the driver installed under macOS or are using Windows. The *only* way to get less latency is using vanilla Core Audio under macOS without the driver installed. Any other scenarios will result in at least very similar latency figures (maybe 1ms less or more under Windows, which I can't check right now).
I can. Regardless of the interface. But using the Stomp at the aforementioned settings (44.1, 32 samples) still results in 15ms RTL.
pipelineaudio
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FWIW Line6 USED TO, like back in the KB37 days have USB drivers in line with everyone else aside from RME. The Toneport GX and KB37 were instrumental in launching many a podcast and were the official unofficial touring devices in the REAPERMobile going around the country showing stuff. I think I first ran into an awfully latent Line6 driver in the Firehawk...not positive though
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