Helix Talk

[EOengineer]

This is timely given all the HX Native praise.

The band is tracking in a couple weeks. We rehearse with a silent setup. I’m using Helix Floor and our other guitarist is using my HXFX/Tonex rig. We’re going to track direct and see how we feel before micing the amps. The thing is I REALLY want to get uneffected guitars as it opens up options production and mixing wise.

So you know what makes for a fantastic MIDI floor controller for Hx Native? Helix hardware!

It took me about an hour of putzing around in Logic, Hx Native, and Hx Edit to get it all programmed but now I have stomps set up inside a Hx Native MIDI preset and the Helix/HXFX control things just like my Helix presets. No audio is actually passing through the Helix hardware.

The obvious solution would have been to take the Helix and Tonex USB audio into Logic via an aggregate device (OSX) but that screws up the ultra low latency we get from our Quantum interface - so I had to hoop jump a little.

 

[Digital Igloo]

Of course not, but it's at least comparable. FM9 f.ex. also has features Helix don't cover at all (instrument + dual balanced in, dual stereo XLR outs, etc), and runs beefier hardware. In general I agree with Helix having by far the best feature set / price ratio in its category otherwise.

Again, I'm not trying to go keyboard crusader and double guess L6's freaking chief product architect here. It's an honest question, because if the street price for a brand new flagship is ~$2k, we all have bigger problems to worry about.

It's tough to get into much detail given that competitors lurk in these waters, but suffice to say, there's a TON of nuance here. If a company sells exclusively direct, they presumably enjoy a higher margin than Line 6 might, but their distribution isn't as wide, so they have to make more per unit than we do to keep the lights on.

Regardless, the cost of parts, tooling, labor, and shipping is what dictates how much a product sells for. Yes, we all account for R&D costs, but that's peanuts when amortized over many hundreds of thousands of units. Operating the business is also accounted for, and it's FAR more expensive to employ a couple hundred people with rent or mortgages in SoCal than it its to employ a veritable army of affordable overseas labor. Quite a few companies give up after a while and just slap their name on some OEM products and call it a day.

With Helix, you have a very expensive, large extruded aluminum chassis, solid aluminum treadle and side panels, tactile buttons and push encoders, and a butt ton of expensive I/O. (We double up the A/Ds to get our leading dynamic range specs and VDI and L6 LINK are especially expensive.) Sure, we could pull an LT and use folded sheet metal and plastic side panels to help pay for a faster DSP or touchscreen, but that wouldn't get us back down to $1499, given that the price of everything else has gone up.

The long and short is: if you want to keep replacement products at the same price, you must do one or more of the following things:

1. Move as much development as possible to China, including but not limited to industrial, mechanical, layout, and implementation design. Consider outsourcing UI and GUI to a firm in Eastern Europe.
2. Use notably cheaper parts or shoddier construction than the previous box.
3. If enough time has passed, remove a bunch of hardware and hope customers don't notice (like what we did with POD Go vs. POD HD500X).
4. Charge for firmware updates.
5. Subscription nonsense.
6. Lay off employees, close offices, gut health benefits, or otherwise embrace radical ways to lower operational costs.
7. Charge more for the next box.

If you remember, Helix landed at three times the price of our previous flagship, and some were straight offended at the audacity. But now ALL the kids are playin' in the $1500-$1800 sandbox, and betcha' if Line 6 were to announce HELIX BEEF SUPREME at, let's say, uh, $2999.99, a few competitors would immediately begin pivoting their road map toward higher end solutions as well. Everyone's just itching for the first company to take that leap, which may not be wise for anyone, given that we're staring down the barrel of a worldwide recession... which coincidentally, is a major reason why Helix came out in 2015 instead of 2010.

"A $3000 Helix Beef Supreme? In THIS economy?"​

 

[Digital Igloo]

Capactive switches aren't needed in case you have a touchscreen...

Of all people, I'd expect you to recognize the many benefits of Helix's cap sense switches.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

And fwiw, I'd almost bet that people using plugins live will become at least a sort of bigger thing one day more or less soon.

Affordable, yet capable computers with zero heat issues and zero moving parts inside only got popular not all *that* long ago - and that trend very likely won't stop any day soon. In fact, the Windows world will have to catch up as well.
Add to this that affordable low latency interfaces are getting more common, too.

As of today, you could get, say, the cheapest Macbook Air (which can run 3-4 fully stuffed HX Native instances on one single core), add a Motu M2 (allowing you to run everything at 3.5ms RTL), purchase Mainstage and then install NAM and a bunch of freeware. That's just around €1,500.
Add a decent foot controller, a case and possibly a cheap tablet running TouchOSC as an "adjustment controller" (so the Macbook could be closed and pushed into a rack drawer) and you're still <2k. That'd already be a setup simply blowing most modelers away in a whole number of disciplines. Spend another 500 bucks for plugins and you have a killer setup.

I think what you are missing in this equation is that the learning curve gets bigger and bigger.

A modeler compared to a simple amp is already a big step. Global EQ, sag, hum etc etc … and you can all leave it be, sure, but with most amps you don’t even get the option.

With software things get maybe worse. Now you need that DAW, joining TGP to ask questions how to set up the daw… get banned… nowhere to ask… join TGF… and everybody gets off topic in the first 4 posts ;-)

But seriously , there is a lot to learn. Daw, plugins etc

 

[dronerstone]

Helix Beef Supreme confirmed then

 

[BenIfin]

.

Hey D.I !

A side-question.

=> any actual-realistic likelihood that Helix Native will be "ported" to AUv3 format, so it can run on IPad / IPhone any time soon ?

Given it would be a %100 software product-re-code with zero hardware, zero manufacturing and zero physical costs of any sort, this strikes me as a very high profit-to-cost ratio .... and once the re-write costs are re-couped ... its virtually $$ Selling Price = $$ Profit

Thanks,
Ben

 

[Sascha Franck]

I think what you are missing in this equation is that the learning curve gets bigger and bigger.

Not really. Future modeler users will be digital natives and using the standalone version of whatever modeler app is as easy as using HX Edit - which most people find to be easier than using the hardware.
Just that running things inside your computer will give you plenty of additional options if you want them.

Admittedly, laptops and Bluetooth-MIDI-controllers are as little rock'n'roll as it gets, but most digital natives possibly couldn't care less.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Of all people, I'd expect you to recognize the many benefits of Helix's cap sense switches.

I absolutely do. On the larger units that is. On the Stomp, the functionality often even is counterproductive as it can't be turned off completely, so I often find myself accidentally touching a switch while dialing in stuff on the unit. Which will at least change the color of the LED in case multiple things are assigned to that switch (which is the case for most of my patches).

However, even if I do not only acknowledge but partially appreciate the value of the capacitive switches, I stick to my previous statement: In case there's a decently sized touchscreen and proper functionality of that very touchscreen UI, you don't need capacitive switches. Assigning them to whatever functions could be done via drag and drop on a touchscreen (drag switch onto to-be-controlled block, just as what you can do with many software synths when assigning modulations). And as far as selecting things goes, a touchscreen is superior anyway as you're not limited by the amount of available switches. These are the two main operations I'm using the capacitive switches for.
And having said that, I'd also be absolutely fine with a small button next (likely above?) the switches doing what is now done with the capacitive functionality. No idea whether that'd be a cheaper solution as well, but it'd defenitely be good to avoid any accidental touches.

But please feel free to tell me whether I'm missing something (even obvious?).

 

[Sascha Franck]

And fwiw, as far as outsourcing things to China go, if Marshall can do it, everybody in the "guitar sound business" can.

$1B sale puts Marshall Amps in Corporate Hands

What does the recent $1.16 billion sale of Marshall Amps mean for the legendary brand? Explore the potential impact on quality and service.

www.hypebot.com

 

[ragingplatypi]

And fwiw, as far as outsourcing things to China go, if Marshall can do it, everybody in the "guitar sound business" can.

$1B sale puts Marshall Amps in Corporate Hands

What does the recent $1.16 billion sale of Marshall Amps mean for the legendary brand? Explore the potential impact on quality and service.

www.hypebot.com

Marshall In a Flat Envelope

 

[Exluthier]

I think what you are missing in this equation is that the learning curve gets bigger and bigger.

A modeler compared to a simple amp is already a big step. Global EQ, sag, hum etc etc … and you can all leave it be, sure, but with most amps you don’t even get the option.

With software things get maybe worse. Now you need that DAW, joining TGP to ask questions how to set up the daw… get banned… nowhere to ask… join TGF… and everybody gets off topic in the first 4 posts ;-)

But seriously , there is a lot to learn. Daw, plugins etc

No more difficult than learning a floor unit UI or learning how to program midi. Honestly I find plugins to be easier. Take something like the Ampknob stuff from Bogren. Pull it up, set how much gain. Done. For some people that's a perfectly usable sound.

 

[Digital Igloo]

Hey D.I !

A side-question.

=> any actual-realistic likelihood that Helix Native will be "ported" to AUv3 format, so it can run on IPad / IPhone any time soon ?

Given it would be a %100 software product-re-code with zero hardware, zero manufacturing and zero physical costs of any sort, this strikes me as a very high profit-to-cost ratio .... and once the re-write costs are re-couped ... its virtually $$ Selling Price = $$ Profit

The business model for desktop plugins is weird enough (Want the SSL Bus Comppressor? $329! Want the SSL Bus Compressor during three random weeks across the year? $29!); the iOS plugin business model is even weirder. Serious iOS music makers are a tiny fraction of the DAW market, yet they expect iOS plugins to be way cheaper than the desktop equivalent.

I absolutely do. On the larger units that is. On the Stomp, the functionality often even is counterproductive as it can't be turned off completely, so I often find myself accidentally touching a switch while dialing in stuff on the unit. Which will at least change the color of the LED in case multiple things are assigned to that switch (which is the case for most of my patches).

However, even if I do not only acknowledge but partially appreciate the value of the capacitive switches, I stick to my previous statement: In case there's a decently sized touchscreen and proper functionality of that very touchscreen UI, you don't need capacitive switches. Assigning them to whatever functions could be done via drag and drop on a touchscreen (drag switch onto to-be-controlled block, just as what you can do with many software synths when assigning modulations). And as far as selecting things goes, a touchscreen is superior anyway as you're not limited by the amount of available switches. These are the two main operations I'm using the capacitive switches for.
And having said that, I'd also be absolutely fine with a small button next (likely above?) the switches doing what is now done with the capacitive functionality. No idea whether that'd be a cheaper solution as well, but it'd defenitely be good to avoid any accidental touches.

But please feel free to tell me whether I'm missing something (even obvious?).

No, I get that cap sense is less utilitarian in HX Stomp. But this conversation has been about flagship processors.

For the uninitiated, cap sense in Helix/Rack+Control/LT lets you:

• Touch to instantly exit out to the Home screen and focus the assigned block's parameters, regardless of the current screen. Most guitarists focus on what's below their feet, not signal flows; tapping the control mechanism (switch) and instantly seeing its parameters is much closer to a pedalboard workflow
• Touch repeatedly to cycle through multiple assigned items (up to 8), even if they appear on different pages. For example, if Stomp 2 has Distortion on/off, Amp Gain Min/Max toggle, and transmit MIDI CC47 assigned, repeatedly touching the switch jumps directly to that item's parameters, whether it's found on the Home, Controller Assign (for tweaking Min/Max toggle values), or Command Center screen. You can actually navigate screens via switches, even if you want to adjust an unassigned item
• Touch-hold to assign the selected block or item to the switch
• Touch-hold any assigned stomp to select momentary or latching operation
• Touch-hold two stomp switches to swap them, including multiple assignments
• Touch-hold two snapshots to swap them
• Touch-hold one snapshot and touch another to quickly copy/paste it
• Touch-hold Up and Down switches to cycle through Bank Up/Down, Preset Up/Down, and Snapshot Up/Down
• Touch TAP to open the Tempo panel to fine tune tempo and set sync settings
• A few more I can't remember right now

All of these procedures are notably slower and more cumbersome without cap switches, via touchscreen or otherwise. In the heat of a gig or session, it's very much the difference between "done, sounds or works better" and "eh... I won't bother; it's probably fine."

And I'm not saying Helix's UI and navigation can't be improved (holy hell, don't I know it), but Helix's cap switches are straight magic, and ditching their numerous advantages (including things we may not have yet thought of) for the same ol' touchscreen tap-tap-tap-swipe-swipe-close-close UI would SUUUCK.

Why_not_both.gif? Sure, but that's more expensive.

 

[EOengineer]

Anyone have any thoughts as to how I could accomplish using Helix command center MIDI to toggle the split route_to in Helix Native?

I’m able to bypass the split block via MIDI but I can’t seem to get set up to toggle the split to switch between two amp models.

I also thought about setting the 2 amps up without the split and inverting the bypass on one of them but didn’t have much luck.

It’s an oddly specific question - I have some time earmarked later this week to investigate more thoroughly.

 

[laxu]

• Touch repeatedly to cycle through multiple assigned items (up to 8), even if they appear on different pages. For example, if Stomp 2 has Distortion on/off, Amp Gain Min/Max toggle, and transmit MIDI CC47 assigned, repeatedly touching the switch jumps directly to that item's parameters, whether it's found on the Home, Controller Assign (for tweaking Min/Max toggle values), or Command Center screen. You can actually navigate screens via switches, even if you want to adjust an unassigned item

Never knew you could do this. Pretty neat.

• Touch-hold to assign the selected block or item to the switch
• Touch-hold any assigned stomp to select momentary or latching operation
• Touch-hold two stomp switches to swap them, including multiple assignments
• Touch-hold two snapshots to swap them
• Touch-hold one snapshot and touch another to quickly copy/paste it
• Touch-hold Up and Down switches to cycle through Bank Up/Down, Preset Up/Down, and Snapshot Up/Down
• Touch TAP to open the Tempo panel to fine tune tempo and set sync settings
• A few more I can't remember right now

All of these procedures are notably slower and more cumbersome without cap switches, via touchscreen or otherwise. In the heat of a gig or session, it's very much the difference between "done, sounds or works better" and "eh... I won't bother; it's probably fine."

The only problem here is you'd need to use these regularly to remember all of these. So by comparison "hold a block on touchscreen and pick an action from the menu" is easier.

And I'm not saying Helix's UI and navigation can't be improved (holy hell, don't I know it), but Helix's cap switches are straight magic, and ditching their numerous advantages (including things we may not have yet thought of) for the same ol' touchscreen tap-tap-tap-swipe-swipe-close-close UI would SUUUCK.

Why_not_both.gif? Sure, but that's more expensive.

Honestly the only capacitive switches thing I used regularly on the Helix Floor was to quickly get to edit a block, so I don't have to use the joystick/knob. Because all the other things are a bit buried, I never got quite confident enough to use them. I occasionally used the swap features but that's about it.

I don't miss them on the Hotone which is basically a HX Stomp with a touchscreen.

 

[Sascha Franck]

For the uninitiated, cap sense in Helix/Rack+Control/LT lets you:

• Touch to instantly exit out to the Home screen and focus the assigned block's parameters, regardless of the current screen. Most guitarists focus on what's below their feet, not signal flows; tapping the control mechanism (switch) and instantly seeing its parameters is much closer to a pedalboard workflow
• Touch repeatedly to cycle through multiple assigned items (up to 8), even if they appear on different pages. For example, if Stomp 2 has Distortion on/off, Amp Gain Min/Max toggle, and transmit MIDI CC47 assigned, repeatedly touching the switch jumps directly to that item's parameters, whether it's found on the Home, Controller Assign (for tweaking Min/Max toggle values), or Command Center screen. You can actually navigate screens via switches, even if you want to adjust an unassigned item
• Touch-hold to assign the selected block or item to the switch
• Touch-hold any assigned stomp to select momentary or latching operation
• Touch-hold two stomp switches to swap them, including multiple assignments
• Touch-hold two snapshots to swap them
• Touch-hold one snapshot and touch another to quickly copy/paste it
• Touch-hold Up and Down switches to cycle through Bank Up/Down, Preset Up/Down, and Snapshot Up/Down
• Touch TAP to open the Tempo panel to fine tune tempo and set sync settings
• A few more I can't remember right now

I'm defenitely not saying these aren't great, but many of those operations don't exactly require instant quick access - they're rather homework operations that work pretty well on all touchscreen based modelers as well - in case the general functionality exists at least. And having said the latter, this is in fact something the Helix still excels at (but not necessarily because of the capacitive switches), there's hardly anything you can't do. Unfortunately some things aren't realized too well IMO. We already talked about the keyboard functionality, which I would've used a lot in case it wasn't patch based. I also hated it when I assigned something via Control Center so I wouldn't be taken straight to the controlled block anymore (admittedly, I'd have to think about a better solution...), etc.

Really, I think I used the Floor quite extensively, and there's not much I could think of that would be missing in case there was a touchscreen instead of the capacitive switches.

 

[Orvillain]

The only problem here is you'd need to use these regularly to remember all of these. So by comparison "hold a block on touchscreen and pick an action from the menu" is easier.

Unless your screen is covered in sweat. Or jizz. Or blood. Or hair. Or freshly severed tongues.

 

[laxu]

Unless your screen is covered in sweat. Or jizz. Or blood. Or hair. Or freshly severed tongues.

You need to stop taking those gigs at the sex dungeon.

 

[Orvillain]

You need to stop taking those gigs at the sex dungeon.

NEVER

 

[Digital Igloo]

I'm defenitely not saying these aren't great, but many of those operations don't exactly require instant quick access - they're rather homework operations that work pretty well on all touchscreen based modelers as well - in case the general functionality exists at least. And having said the latter, this is in fact something the Helix still excels at (but not necessarily because of the capacitive switches), there's hardly anything you can't do. Unfortunately some things aren't realized too well IMO. We already talked about the keyboard functionality, which I would've used a lot in case it wasn't patch based. I also hated it when I assigned something via Control Center so I wouldn't be taken straight to the controlled block anymore (admittedly, I'd have to think about a better solution...), etc.

Really, I think I used the Floor quite extensively, and there's not much I could think of that would be missing in case there was a touchscreen instead of the capacitive switches.

All of my bullets above can be accomplished through other means as well—the cap switches simply provide shortcuts to let you access them much faster. As a bonus, the pervasive disconnect from needing to know what physical input mechanism applies to what virtual item (sometimes across disparate screens) is completely removed. Personally, I loathe staring at a signal flow (engineer brain) while performing (creative brain).

We've actually performed extensive UX tests in house with users of a wide variety of technical prowess, collecting metrics on discoverability, ease of use, and speed of use. As you might expect, the disciplines are very different. Lately we've been focusing on how to design features that can seamlessly scale up from super n00b-friendly use cases to hardcore power user use cases, without applying patronizing training wheels like Easy Mode or something. It's tricky but rewarding.

 

[Progressive_disclosure]

All of my bullets above can be accomplished through other means as well—the cap switches simply provide shortcuts to let you access them much faster. As a bonus, the pervasive disconnect from needing to know what physical input mechanism applies to what virtual item (sometimes across disparate screens) is completely removed. Personally, I loathe staring at a signal flow (engineer brain) while performing (creative brain).

We've actually performed extensive UX tests in house with users of a wide variety of technical prowess, collecting metrics on discoverability, ease of use, and speed of use. As you might expect, the disciplines are very different. Lately we've been focusing on how to design features that can seamlessly scale up from super n00b-friendly use cases to hardcore power user use cases, without applying patronizing training wheels like Easy Mode or something. It's tricky but rewarding.

This warms my shriveled up UX Designer heart to read, especially since establishing extensive testing is hard in my work context. Looking forward to seeing what you and the team comes up with.