Helix Talk

[JiveTurkey]

i actually used this a few times, live!!! Couldnt really gel with it and then someone at some forum told me "get a Helix".

View attachment 36558

That looks neat actually! See where it took you, all these years later!

 

[the swede]

That looks neat actually! See where it took you, all these years later!

It was a adventure for sure. That took me nowhere

 

[Sedaxel]

I know many of you will destroy me for this question... but hey, it´s just for fun.

I love Helix ecosystem. Had an LT myself (sold it for a reason I explained several times and not going to write it again), and I consider it the most complete product currently available.

And now: given the FACT that capturing/profiling is becoming a facility (just as IRs or any other effect type), and that every brand will feature it (I think only Fractal, Line6, Boss and Zoom are left)... do you think Helix is going to get into it?

I guess Fractal will be the last to give captures a chance. My bet is that Zoom will be the first of these four. Maybe then Boss... How about Line6?

 

[the swede]

I guess Fractal will be the last to give captures a chance.

I think Line 6 would probably jump in before Fractal, differnet types of companies and such, doing kinda the same thing, but Fractal being fractal i think they are very content with what they do.

 

[EOengineer]

I know many of you will destroy me for this question... but hey, it´s just for fun.

I love Helix ecosystem. Had an LT myself (sold it for a reason I explained several times and not going to write it again), and I consider it the most complete product currently available.

And now: given the FACT that capturing/profiling is becoming a facility (just as IRs or any other effect type), and that every brand will feature it (I think only Fractal, Line6, Boss and Zoom are left)... do you think Helix is going to get into it?

I guess Fractal will be the last to give captures a chance. My bet is that Zoom will be the first of these four. Maybe then Boss... How about Line6?

This is a perfectly legitimate question and one we’ve talked about a bit. L6 is very invested in white glove modeling. At one point I got the impression they were not interested in capture technology at all.

At this point it’s becoming a table stakes feature for a modern processor and I think they will have to accommodate it or risk losing out when folks compare features against the competition.

Not sure that it comes to Helix, but I’d expect either another dedicated box for it, or more likely…for it to pop up in the next generation of L6 products.

 

[Lele]

If that does not work there is always plan B the Sadites end of the chain compressor .

I punch the sky every time I hear a mention of Saddites and his shitty tone glue recommendations.

I’m already a wannabe audio engineer so it’s cool.

I admit that I tried out a compressor block post amp already many years ago with my Digitech GSP1101 and RP360. I loved the concept that I could move the position of the compressor block also post amp!

Even if I love Jason Sadites informative videos to learn about parameters, effects and amps, generally I don't like his settings, but I think that's ok.
About the compression post amp anyway I love the "Ampeg Opto Comp" after the amp block (but not after the other effects), with rather low Compress (1/1.5 - cutting about 3 dB from the peaks) and quick Release (1.0) and mix about 75%. Imho it helps to get a good sound in a mix, and I don't know why but this "Ampeg" compressor block imho works better than the other types, even if the "audio engineer" in me isn't happy not controlling every parameter...

Edit: by the way the "Ampeg Opto Comp" has a fixed threshold and ratio (unknown values); Compress controls how much level the compressor detector circuit receives

 

[EOengineer]

I mean there is a time and place for a post amp compressor, it’s just very odd to treat it as a must-have staple on every preset.

We no joke had to kick out the other guitarist in my prior band because he insisted on chorus and spring reverb 100% of the time, even when using lots of overdriven tones.

No thanks.

 

[Lysander]

i actually used this a few times, live!!! Couldnt really gel with it and then someone at some forum told me "get a Helix".

Jesus H Christ on a basket, how many companies have blatantly stolencopied Tech21's SansAmp GT2 schematic by now?!

 

[Exluthier]

I know many of you will destroy me for this question... but hey, it´s just for fun.

I love Helix ecosystem. Had an LT myself (sold it for a reason I explained several times and not going to write it again), and I consider it the most complete product currently available.

And now: given the FACT that capturing/profiling is becoming a facility (just as IRs or any other effect type), and that every brand will feature it (I think only Fractal, Line6, Boss and Zoom are left)... do you think Helix is going to get into it?

I guess Fractal will be the last to give captures a chance. My bet is that Zoom will be the first of these four. Maybe then Boss... How about Line6?

I just saw Digital Igloo from Line 6 answer something like this on TGP and he seemed dismissive of the idea. This was in regards to the idea of incorporating NAM or something like it into Helix. Don't know if they're working on something proprietary but it sure didn't seem like it from that reply.

 

[Lysander]

And now: given the FACT that capturing/profiling is becoming a facility (just as IRs or any other effect type), and that every brand will feature it (I think only Fractal, Line6, Boss and Zoom are left)... do you think Helix is going to get into it?

That's a serious list of brands not featuring profiling thou

I don't think we'll see a profiling product from L6 anytime soon; DI, f.ex, has noted many times they have no interest in me-too products, and would only do profiling/capturing if such a feature becomes an industry tablestake.

Cliff from Fractal has outright stated many times he has zero interest in profiling, and believes modeling to be a superior approach.

 

[the-trooper]

do you think Helix is going to get into it?

Nope. It'll probably be there in their next unit.

 

[EOengineer]

That's a serious list of brands not featuring profiling thou

A reasonable case might also be made that none of those brands have a history of being early adopters of technology that isn’t proprietary.

Obviously that doesn’t mean they won’t eventually make their way there but I wouldn’t expect it any time soon.

I don't think we'll see a profiling product from L6 anytime soon; DI, f.ex, has noted many times they have no interest in me-too products, and would only do profiling/capturing if such a feature becomes an industry tablestake.

Cliff from Fractal has outright stated many times he has zero interest in profiling, and believes modeling to be a superior approach.

I agree with you.

I’m sure I’m wrong because both Cliff and DI are very intelligent people, but I really challenge their treatment of capture technology as a competitor to white glove modeling.

Capture tech’s true value for many people using it is its ability to capture and transport a user’s own personal rig. It’s not a replacement for white glove modeling and I believe they are making a gross miscalculation treating it as such.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I can’t really see Line 6 not adding it, it’s kind of par for the course these days and I think people generally expect it. If it’s something that is the difference between buying one unit over another I think it’ll be there.

 

[Lysander]

Capture tech’s true value for many people using it is its ability to capture and transport a user’s own personal rig.

Very true, but i'm pretty certain that the percentage of Kemper/QC/Headrush/NAM/etc. users creating their own profiles is in the low single digits.

Most people just go out and buy capture packs, which i always found weird. I guess there's a psychological component of "i'm paying so it'll sound just like the real thing!", but the tones you can squeeze out of those are not really that different from a quality modeler.

 

[EOengineer]

Very true, but i'm pretty certain that the percentage of Kemper/QC/Headrush/NAM/etc. creating their own profiles is in the low single digits.

Most people just go out and buy capture packs, which i always found weird. I guess there's a psychological component of "i'm paying so it'll sound just like the real thing!", but the tones you can squeeze out of those are not really that different from a quality modeler.

Well, to an extent I agree. I’m not saying the only value is in capturing my own rig, but even paid captures are all over the map right now in terms of quality.

As we all know, capture technology is still in its infancy and there are all kinds of issues with levels, calibration, etc that make capturing gear overwhelming for your average user, and honestly even some of the companies selling captures still aren’t getting it right.

Those issues will eventually subside as we iterate on the tech. That will likely also help with 3rd party capture libraries being more consistent across environments as well. At that point maybe the black box stuff becomes more of a competitor, but it’s hard to say. There’s definitely an element of capture fatigue that is prevalent and growing on these forums and others.

I suspect L6, Boss, etc are waiting for the dust to settle on some standards eventually emerging around capture tech that helps with the consistency issue.

Maybe we’re also in uncharted waters in that there’s a thriving open source capture tech that is rapidly iterating, which has not historically been true on the white glove side.

 

[ian_dissonance]

A reasonable case might also be made that none of those brands have a history of being early adopters of technology that isn’t proprietary.

Obviously that doesn’t mean they won’t eventually make their way there but I wouldn’t expect it any time soon.


I agree with you.

I’m sure I’m wrong because both Cliff and DI are very intelligent people, but I really challenge their treatment of capture technology as a competitor to white glove modeling.

Capture tech’s true value for many people using it is its ability to capture and transport a user’s own personal rig. It’s not a replacement for white glove modeling and I believe they are making a gross miscalculation treating it as such.

94.678% of buyers are not profiling shit. They’re scrolling through everyone else’s profiles and buying “pro packs” of presets.

 

[laxu]

Well, to an extent I agree. I’m not saying the only value is in capturing my own rig, but even paid captures are all over the map right now in terms of quality.

As we all know, capture technology is still in its infancy and there are all kinds of issues with levels, calibration, etc that make capturing gear overwhelming for your average user, and honestly even some of the companies selling captures still aren’t getting it right.

Which is why Kemper has long been riding on "known good" 3rd party capture vendors, and Tonex users tend to say "buy these Amalgam captures".

Making captures has been "techy" from the start where the wrong levels can be a difference in how they turn out, with not enough guidance on the modelers to figure out what's good. I remember having to trial and error the input levels on the QC because it didn't really say when it's good.

Maybe we’re also in uncharted waters in that there’s a thriving open source capture tech that is rapidly iterating, which has not historically been true on the white glove side.

NAM adding that input/reference level metadata was big because it guarantees I can load a capture from anybody, and have it behave like it did on their system. Of course, getting users to input it right is going to be a problem still. But at least those who know how to make captures well will be able to pass their work on without the end user having to worry about knowing anything but their own system's input level.

I just don't see Line6 or Fractal being too interested in jumping on a "me too" wagon for captures and adding some capture block. I think they are more forward thinking than that.

I could see them offering a system for "make an amp model sound like my similar amp" where it might ask you about your current settings on the real amp, then capture its sound, and figure out how to match the model. Then you'll have "your amp" but still have accurate control over its EQ. Most amps out there are not that unique - a lot of the same tone stacks etc, which is why e.g Kemper "Liquid Profiling" can work pretty decently.

 

[EOengineer]

94.678% of buyers are not profiling shit. They’re scrolling through everyone else’s profiles and buying “pro packs” of presets.

Cool? I never stated the majority of users are creating captures. I said the VALUE that differentiates capture from white glove modeling is the ability to capture ones rig.

That's obviously my opinion, but I don't think its a controversial one.

 

[EOengineer]

Making captures has been "techy" from the start where the wrong levels can be a difference in how they turn out, with not enough guidance on the modelers to figure out what's good. I remember having to trial and error the input levels on the QC because it didn't really say when it's good.

Yeah once you have control of the hardware it's easier to mitigate the consistency problem so long as everyone is using that same hardware or knows how to get to compatible levels on their hardware. That's part of why I'd love to see capture come to Helix, because it also happens to be a fantastic interface. I'm not optimistic that we see that happen, in fact I'm pretty sure it does not show up in Helix, and I totally understand why L6 and others might hold off. I do think there is a point where they will have to add it though.

 

[bearcore]

I also got the impression that Line 6 wasn't particularly interested in captures, but at the same time, their tendency to omit switches and deeper editing parameters prevents them from taking full advantage of the flexibility of component modeling. For example, the Big Muff is one of the most commonly modded circuits, but they don't include any of those options on any of the variations.