Helix Talk

[banned]

If you can't "feel" it with the volume at zero, you're not actually "feeling" anything, no semantics there. You're 100% hearing it and you should be able to describe what you're hearing. There is no magic in what's coming out of guitar speakers. They're just pushing air like any other speakers.
It's especially counterproductive to talk to someone about tone, trying to explain what you're getting from your amp/modeler/device and how to achieve the same, and boil it down to "feel".

I'm an engineer but not a electrical/electronics engineer. I did take a course on control systems and I tried to describe using the little I know. To me, with the sag knob dialed up on the Helix, the time response of the signal changes (in some cases, also the frequency response). Here's a simple 1st order filter in time-domain -

Very basic stuff - I feel this is what the signal is doing in part - the dynamic response changes and I perceive that as bloom, sag etc. This to me, is what makes for great guitar tone (my style of playing is like Andy Timmons, JNC etc.) which is highly feel-oriented lead playing.

As to what Line6 is doing? I really don't know. If you're an experienced guitarist, you will CLEARLY feel the effects of sag at 8 vs 5. Again, for my style, I almost always prefer the sag knob at around 8 (through guitar cab). I really don't touch bias, ripple, hum etc. Sag is the complete difference maker for me on the Helix.

Thanks for your point about the feel coming through in the tone - I think most people recognize that. If you know more, please do add. Otherwise, we'll have to wait for more knowledgeable people to chime in.

 

[molul]

Oh my... When I thought I was done searching for a better tone, now I'll have to mess with sag in all my amps

 

[holoholo]

If they named the control “perky” instead of sag, would more players tweak it?

 

[molul]

Should I assume an amp's default setting's sag value is the best for that amp?

 

[laxu]

Should I assume an amp's default setting's sag value is the best for that amp?

No, you can assume that whatever setting you prefer is the best. But the default setting can be part of the vibe of that amp.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Should I assume an amp's default setting's sag value is the best for that amp?

Yes just do that (to keep your mental sanity)

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

No, you can assume that whatever setting you prefer is the best. But the default setting can be part of the vibe of that amp.

So 5 is authentic… phewwww lets just keep the sag at 5 ;-)

 

[sashimi]

If you're an experienced guitarist, you will CLEARLY feel the effects of sag at 8 vs 5.

25 years playing guitar, I can’t hear or feel a difference at 8 vs 5 or even at 10 vs 0. But I don’t play through a guitar cab unless it’s one of my tube amps, I usually play helix through studio monitors.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I can’t hear or feel a difference at 8 vs 5 or even at 10 vs 0.

As said, grab the new Panama Blue and check wih Sag at 0 and 10. The differences are drastic.

 

[Lysander]

I'm an engineer but not a electrical/electronics engineer. I did take a course on control systems and I tried to describe using the little I know. To me, with the sag knob dialed up on the Helix, the time response of the signal changes (in some cases, also the frequency response). Here's a simple 1st order filter in time-domain (....)

Not that what you quote is wrong here but, it has nothing to do with sag when referred to guitar amplifications.

As someone else mentioned earlier, "sag" is the when the power amp section struggles to change its output fast enough to keep up with the input signal. It's not just a delay, and the resulting behavior is complex, depending f.ex. on volume and frequency content. It mostly manifests as the signal getting compressed.

 

[spawnofthesith]

Sag in the real world really only exists on Class AB amps using tube rectifiers. Which is why there's happening pretty much nothing (or even nothing at all, haven't explored it carefully enough) on, say, Fender amps.

Wait hold up a minute, if I’m not mistaken my deluxe reverb is class A/B (Mayve I’m wrong?) and definitely has a rectifier tube

 

[HomespunEffects]

As said, grab the new Panama Blue and check wih Sag at 0 and 10. The differences are drastic.

Just tried it. It really does have an unrealistic amount of sag. Good call.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Sag with the Panama Blue. 3 chords /w Sag at 0, same chords /w Sag at 10.



As said before, I think this is quite overexaggerated than what would ever happen with that amp in real life, but it still demonstrates the effect of that "delayed compression" Sag is known for.

 

[fret gunk]

Sag with the Panama Blue. 3 chords /w Sag at 0, same chords /w Sag at 10.



As said before, I think this is quite overexaggerated than what would ever happen with that amp in real life, but it still demonstrates the effect of that "delayed compression" Sag is known for.

That's a great example. It reminds me of why I prefer lower sag settings. It also reminds me of how much I dislike playing through a poorly-set compressor!

 

[banned]

From a technical standpoint, why is the bass always more present?

Example: Cali 1, add a Minotaur to it and instantly I need to lower the bass EQ by a lot. In that sense, mid and treble seem more equally balanced in a way.

This doesn't make sense - in my experience, the Minotaur always reduces the bass with any level of gain past around 1.5. Wonder why you're feeling that way?

 

[banned]

Not that what you quote is wrong here but, it has nothing to do with sag when referred to guitar amplifications.

As someone else mentioned earlier, "sag" is the when the power amp section struggles to change its output fast enough to keep up with the input signal. It's not just a delay, and the resulting behavior is complex, depending f.ex. on volume and frequency content. It mostly manifests as the signal getting compressed.

Sure - I understand what sag is in a guitar amplifier context. The other person was asking what it does to the signal - you're right, it is complex - what I was trying to point out is that it isn't just a straight delay (eg: x(i) -> x(i-1) - this is in discrete now)....but has other elements that feel like a time-constant etc.

 

[sashimi]

Sag with the Panama Blue. 3 chords /w Sag at 0, same chords /w Sag at 10.



As said before, I think this is quite overexaggerated than what would ever happen with that amp in real life, but it still demonstrates the effect of that "delayed compression" Sag is known for.

Thanks, great example, I had planned on giving this a try since your first post about it but haven’t had a chance. But I totally get it now. It does sound like a compressor with a slow release.

 

[banned]

Thanks, great example, I had planned on giving this a try since your first post about it but haven’t had a chance. But I totally get it now. It does sound like a compressor with a slow release.

The response varies a lot across different amps. But in general, past ~9.6, it's usually not very good regardless of amp type.

 

[Digital Igloo]

As said before, I think this is quite overexaggerated than what would ever happen with that amp in real life, but it still demonstrates the effect of that "delayed compression" Sag is known for.

Yep. FWIU, 5.0 is how the actual amp behaves. Values lower than 5.0 remove real sag, values higher than 5.0 exaggerate existing sag.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Yep. FWIU, 5.0 is how the actual amp behaves. Values lower than 5.0 remove real sag, values higher than 5.0 exaggerate existing sag.

Maybe that could be written better in the manual. “Lowering” sag is different to me than “removing real sag”.

Is that the same with Bias and Bias x?