Helix Talk

[dronerstone]

I already had an answer around it. It had to do with Fletcher Munson.

I did not notice that much difference in Fender Deluxe, Super reverb and honestly sure a bit of difference in AC30 and Marshall but not shockingly.

Also with the IRs that I now have I wouldn’t say I notice that much difference between a M65 Cream IR and a Fender Deluxe IR.

And I am sure there is a difference. But I don’t hear it as super different from each other.

That’s when I thought perhaps I am just playing on to low volumes to really notice a big difference.

I guess I am around 60-75 Db mostly when I play.

Crank that shit!

Also, seems you might be a low-gain person? Set the amps to cookin' levels, slam the front end with boost, fuzz, whatever you wish for.

Once near breakup (and beyond) is where they start to show their real face - fortunately a decent enough modeler will have all the different amps react in their unique ways when being hit with high output, etc.

Volume definitely is a point, but it's not solely that.

Your ears might also play a role, as sad as that might sound.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Volume defenitely plays a big role in judging sounds. As long as you can still more or less clearly hear your strings acoustically as well, it's likely too little volume to judge an amp sound.

 

[BahamaDada]

Yeah, it wasn't as bad as I expected (cheap AF old and half-broken PA, but they got it to work). Later during the set the sub woofers went to their knees and started cutting out, supposedly due to the volume levels of our little ensemble.

Lots of smaller/indie venues in Vienna AT looks and sounds similar, since most older buildings downtown have that kind of basement, and many of them are connected if you have a "master key" (and the owners didn't change the locks at some point). Probably a central EU thing

Having a shitass PA must be an European thing. I swear no small venue here in Germany ever had a good PA. It's always shit ass 2 8'' satelites and a halfrotten sub in the corner of the venue. Invest ONCE in a good PA? Why, nobody cares, eh?

Thanks much!

My kitchen-sink Helix preset runs a spring reverb after the amp block, then splits two ways:

1) mono 1/4 out into Katana power amp input

2) All stereo: Dual Cab block -> Legacy Tile (very slightly, to add depth) -> Stereo Widener -> dual XLR out to FOH

What's the Stereo Widener you talk about? Is that the horrible doubler-thing in "Modulation"?

 

[dronerstone]

What's the Stereo Widener you talk about? Is that the horrible doubler-thing in "Modulation"?

Nope, it's the "Stereo Imager" found among the "Volume/Pan" tools.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Crank that shit!

Also, seems you might be a low-gain person? Set the amps to cookin' levels, slam the front end with boost, fuzz, whatever you wish for.

Once near breakup (and beyond) is where they start to show their real face - fortunately a decent enough modeler will have all the different amps react in their unique ways when being hit with high output, etc.

Volume definitely is a point, but it's not solely that.

Your ears might also play a role, as sad as that might sound.

Yep I am. I often play clean or really before that edge of breaking up.

When i hear break up happening on the amp I often turn it a bit down or the guitar a bit down.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Volume defenitely plays a big role in judging sounds. As long as you can still more or less clearly hear your strings acoustically as well, it's likely too little volume to judge an amp sound.

No, i don’t play that quiet. I do hear the strings but not as I would hear it when I am unplugged

 

[ian_dissonance]

This is how I came to this question and I am sorry I should have elaborated a bit more but my thought process had not formed fully around it . Perhaps it has to do with Fletcher Munson.

I did not notice that much difference in the amps Fender Deluxe, Super reverb and honestly sure a bit of difference in AC30 and Marshall but not shockingly. A Super might have a bit more darkness … a deluxe a bit more bright. If I pick a really different amp compared to these .. yes, it becomes more distinguishable.

Also with the IRs that I now have I wouldn’t say I notice that much difference between a M65 Cream IR and a Fender Deluxe IR. And zero in the mixes.

And I am sure there is a difference. But I don’t hear it as super different from each other.

That’s when I thought perhaps I am just playing on to low volumes to really notice a big difference.

I guess I am around 60-75 Db mostly when I play.

A LOT of amps share very similar circuitry and the nuance of the sound is mostly up to the player to distinguish, IMO. I’m high gain player and I could take the Revv, Vitriol, Meteor, EV Panama Red, Oblivion, etc and get something that I would be happy with recording or playing with because they can all “do the thing” even if there are some differences in how they get there. The longer I play the more I realize the value of “tone” is entirely on the player and a lot of gear is just different maps to the same destination.

 

[Chromatizm]

A LOT of amps share very similar circuitry and the nuance of the sound is mostly up to the player to distinguish, IMO. I’m high gain player and I could take the Revv, Vitriol, Meteor, EV Panama Red, Oblivion, etc and get something that I would be happy with recording or playing with because they can all “do the thing” even if there are some differences in how they get there. The longer I play the more I realize the value of “tone” is entirely on the player and a lot of gear is just different maps to the same destination.

It's not that amp's share similar circuitry, but the fact that a lot of high gain players have the gain cranked so high that you don't hear the differences in tone. Any EQ changes are less effective and you end up with a homogenized sound.

 

[ian_dissonance]

It's not that amp's share similar circuitry, but the fact that a lot of high gain players have the gain cranked so high that you don't hear the differences in tone. Any EQ changes are less effective and you end up with a homogenized sound.

Entirely depends on what you’re listening for. I make clean/EOB amps all sound roughly the same, too. The cab is going to change the sounds more than the preamp.

 

[dronerstone]

Entirely depends on what you’re listening for. I make clean/EOB amps all sound roughly the same, too. The cab is going to change the sounds more than the preamp.

also a legit point.

 

[laxu]

This is how I came to this question and I am sorry I should have elaborated a bit more but my thought process had not formed fully around it . Perhaps it has to do with Fletcher Munson.

I did not notice that much difference in the amps Fender Deluxe, Super reverb and honestly sure a bit of difference in AC30 and Marshall but not shockingly. A Super might have a bit more darkness … a deluxe a bit more bright. If I pick a really different amp compared to these .. yes, it becomes more distinguishable.

Also with the IRs that I now have I wouldn’t say I notice that much difference between a M65 Cream IR and a Fender Deluxe IR. And zero in the mixes.

And I am sure there is a difference. But I don’t hear it as super different from each other.

That’s when I thought perhaps I am just playing on to low volumes to really notice a big difference.

I guess I am around 60-75 Db mostly when I play.

A Deluxe and Super Reverb are like maybe 90% the same circuit. The real difference comes from the output power, bigger transformers on Super and the very different speakers used. Totally apparently in the real amps, but with digital modelers can kinda disappear when actual volume is out of the equation.

The quality of your output devices will also matter, and that can help either veil or reveal those nuances. For a long time I thought that e.g every That Pedal Show video had harsh tones, but it turns out I was using headphones with a shitload of high end (Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro).

At low volume it is very possible that some of those nuances can be hard to hear. I find that when the volume is low enough, I don't really care too much if I'm playing a tube amp, attenuated tube amp, modeler, pedals into a clean tube amp etc..they all start to sound somewhat similar.

But Fender vs Vox vs Marshall should be pretty noticeable, especially if each is paired with the intended cab.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

A Deluxe and Super Reverb are like maybe 90% the same circuit. The real difference comes from the output power, bigger transformers on Super and the very different speakers used. Totally apparently in the real amps, but with digital modelers can kinda disappear when actual volume is out of the equation.

The quality of your output devices will also matter, and that can help either veil or reveal those nuances. For a long time I thought that e.g every That Pedal Show video had harsh tones, but it turns out I was using headphones with a shitload of high end (Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro).

At low volume it is very possible that some of those nuances can be hard to hear. I find that when the volume is low enough, I don't really care too much if I'm playing a tube amp, attenuated tube amp, modeler, pedals into a clean tube amp etc..they all start to sound somewhat similar.

But Fender vs Vox vs Marshall should be pretty noticeable, especially if each is paired with the intended cab.

Yep, those I notice the difference in. I have the Fender, Vox and Marshall most in use. And good point, I should not care to much if it's just practicing from home. My Helix set up is complete with the JBL305s, some bought York IRs. Perhaps get to LT / Floor some day. But i've heard there are also players who use the Stomp as the complete rig, even live.

 

[kartikg3]

some bought York IRs

York IRs are awesome. But the new Helix cabs make any IRs redundant, and are infinitely more flexible, especially with the dual cabs and the auto mic and distance settings. Once you get a hang of how different mics blend and sound with different cabs, it gets very easy to dial on the sound in your head for a given context. I miss HX cabs (now that I am on a different platform)

 

[Sleezy E]

A LOT of amps share very similar circuitry and the nuance of the sound is mostly up to the player to distinguish, IMO. I’m high gain player and I could take the Revv, Vitriol, Meteor, EV Panama Red, Oblivion, etc and get something that I would be happy with recording or playing with because they can all “do the thing” even if there are some differences in how they get there. The longer I play the more I realize the value of “tone” is entirely on the player and a lot of gear is just different maps to the same destination.

100%

To take it a step further... I used a gt8 for years. The first time I took my helix to practice my drummer said, "it sounds like you"

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

York IRs are awesome. But the new Helix cabs make any IRs redundant, and are infinitely more flexible, especially with the dual cabs and the auto mic and distance settings. Once you get a hang of how different mics blend and sound with different cabs, it gets very easy to dial on the sound in your head for a given context. I miss HX cabs (now that I am on a different platform)

I am not 100% sure if I would call them redundant (for me). So far, every time I try to create my own cabs it's just always worse than if I pick a York IR. It's also a "where do I even start" learning about the types of mics, how to position .. all that stuff is just way over my head and I don't really want to learn that all since that would also mean less time on what I actually want to do: play guitar.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

prob short question: IRs 2048 vs 1024 is nothing to worry about for home use right?

 

[laxu]

prob short question: IRs 2048 vs 1024 is nothing to worry about for home use right?

Easy to try for yourself. If you have the processing power to spare, always use 2048. If not, 1024 will be fine. You should be able to tell a difference, but it depends on the IR how noticeable that will be.

 

[Sascha Franck]

You should be able to tell a difference, but it depends on the IR how noticeable that will be.

Quite some of my favourite IRs aren't even 1024 samples long and quite often, in case I have a choice, I use the shorter ones. The reason obviously being just my taste, but I usually don't seem to like the captured reflections longer IRs add (and they're still not long enough to add sufficient room information anyway).

 

[Lele]

prob short question: IRs 2048 vs 1024 is nothing to worry about for home use right?

Nothing to worry about at all in any situation...

1024 samples (about 23 ms long) are enough to represent perfectly the frequency response of a cabinet (words of @jay mitchell and I'm pretty sure that even just for that reason it is so).
Any longer impulse response will just include more (very) early reflections taken together with the frequency response of the speaker/mic.
Will an impulse sound different 1024 Vs 2048? Yes, but it will depend on how they took and generate the impulse response.
If the impulse response is "pure" with no or very few early reflections (=reverb) you will not hear any difference. But since most or all commercial impulse responses include some unknown early reflections, you may hear a little difference.
By the way, I'm not sure if using 1024 or 2048 samples IR in the Helix makes any difference about the DSP allocation.

 

[laxu]

By the way, I'm not sure if using 1024 or 2048 samples IR in the Helix makes any difference about the DSP allocation.

It absolutely does.