Helix Talk

[MirrorProfiles]

what about the "in house" amps?
They're not from real amps, but made in the same program/software.

they have the same sound too.

I was chugging around on the real amps just now, and I can hear a sort of similar sound but it seems to disappear a lot quicker, and just be less pronounced in general.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

@MirrorProfiles i always thought it was a mismatch of the gain:bass ratio creating low end flub. Cutting off low end before the amps usually gets rid of it for me, but that's pretty unfortunate if the real amps don't exhibit this behavior.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Disembodied Distortion Strikes Again TM

 

[pipelineaudio]

they have the same sound too.

I was chugging around on the real amps just now, and I can hear a sort of similar sound but it seems to disappear a lot quicker, and just be less pronounced in general.

I got somewhat burned once when I made a video about aliasing and someone was able to show me a similar sound from tube amps caused by IMD, so I'm a bit gunshy on this one, but I do certainly hear the effect you have shown

 

[GTR37]

Disembodied Distortion Strikes Again TM

That why you need the glue JT
Sadities glue LA 3 compressor ,just put that s$@“ on everything

 

[holoholo]

If I have to hear the word “glue” in regards to tone I’m gonna put a pube in their pizza

 

[SillyOctpuss]

If I have to hear the word “glue” in regards to tone I’m gonna put a pube in their pizza

 

[avanzzzi]

I got somewhat burned once when I made a video about aliasing and someone was able to show me a similar sound from tube amps caused by IMD, so I'm a bit gunshy on this one, but I do certainly hear the effect you have shown

The effect exists in Neural and NAM too, but it's so fast that it's hard to notice. On Helix, it just gets in the way, sums up, and becomes very noticeable. Maybe it can be fixed in a firmware update, I hope, as to me, Helix still sounds pretty good. I'll probably favor other plugins instead of Helix Native from now on, though.

 

[Elf]

Anyone know what's up with this weird artifact that Helix does. It sounds like a filter sweep over the decay - I can often hear it in various amp models to different degrees. Drives me nuts because I don't hear it in real amps or other modellers and it makes me think something is wrong:

Helix Noise

Settings here, but its pretty easy to reproduce if you listen out for it. Guessing its aliasing artifacts?

View attachment 26323

EDIT: Another clear example with the newer 2203 model:

HX Noise_2.wav

I hear it in your posted audios but can’t reproduce it in my system, just tried with Helix Native, can you post your stems so I can import them to Logic?

 

[avanzzzi]

Well, I have some DIs, recorded with HX Stomp and a preset if you want to check it out too.

HelixCheck files

 

[Alex Kenivel]

Disembodied Distortion Strikes Again TM

 

[Foxmeister]

Do you think this is something different then?

Helix Noise

The noise reminded me of something that I couldn't quite remember, but tremolo springs came to mind.

Then I remembered this video, staring around 80 seconds in.



Note: I'm *not* saying the noise is from tremolo springs, only that this stuck in my mind from when I originally watched this video.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

The noise reminded me of something that I couldn't quite remember, but tremolo springs came to mind.

Then I remembered this video, staring around 80 seconds in.



Note: I'm *not* saying the noise is from tremolo springs, only that this stuck in my mind from when I originally watched this video.

Ha this reminds me of using the old foam packaging that would come with EMG's to dampen the springs. I can see the similarity, but I think its also quite a different sound - this resonates in one frequency area whereas the other noise is kind of zipping downwards.

I'll see if I can do some more clips, its kind of hard to do anything scientifically because I'd need to set things up to be identical and account for a ton of variables. The examples I posted above really demonstrate it best, and I'd say its quite easy to reproduce just play playing palm muted single notes like I did. The more gain you add, the more itll expose it but it doesnt really need a ton of distortion for it to be clear.

The effect exists in Neural and NAM too, but it's so fast that it's hard to notice. On Helix, it just gets in the way, sums up, and becomes very noticeable. Maybe it can be fixed in a firmware update, I hope, as to me, Helix still sounds pretty good. I'll probably favor other plugins instead of Helix Native from now on, though.

Yeah - I feel like I can just about hear it with real amps and other modelling platforms but it disappears much quicker and is lower to begin with. On Helix it sticks out, elsewhere I have to really focus and I cant be 100% sure if I'm hearing it.

 

[Orvillain]

I feel like I might be about to open a can of worms. Apologies in advance. Also, I'm not a bonefide expert in any of this stuff. But, Helix Native inside PluginDoctor reveals some interesting things.

Helix Native running at 44.1kHz sample-rate. With zero processing inside the plugin:

Helix Native running at 48kHz sample-rate. Again, with zero processing inside the plugin:

This shows us that at 44.1kHz sample-rate, even with no processing, Helix Native aliases.

Now at what point does this aliasing kick in? If we use the decibel range selector on the right hand side, we can check:

It seems that around -106.7dB, aliasing starts to kick in. That means signals from -106.7dB to -200dB will experience some form of aliasing. This is regardless of what processing is going on inside the plugin.

Here are the images for 88.2kHz:

And 96kHz:

Conclusion: If you care about this aliasing, do not run Helix Native at anything other than 48kHz sample-rate.

Whether this goes any way to explaining what @MirrorProfiles is reporting, I couldn't say at this stage. In theory even if humans cannot perceive these sounds directly, it could cause some sort of inter-modulation artifacts, which could be described as squirrels.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Whether this goes any way to explaining what @MirrorProfiles is reporting, I couldn't say at this stage. In theory even if humans cannot perceive these sounds directly, it could cause some sort of inter-modulation artifacts, which could be described as squirrels.

I'm guessing that because the artefact is there on the HW, and Helix Native at 48kHz, that its just another quirk of Helix Native. Presumably their resampling algo to get things to run at 48kHz isn't particularly good. There's usually various tradeoffs with how you do it that will mangle one thing or another and you just have to pick your poison.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Also, I'd love to see Line 6 take the shackles off for Metallurgy as it isn't constrained to having to support the HW 1:1 like HX Native is.

 

[Orvillain]

Here is Helix running the Dual Rectifier model:

You can see that we do have some wrap around frequencies, as shown by the reverse direction bars in the 3s-4s range; coming down from the top. Even at -122dB this might be enough to cause some intermodulation distortion.

For reference, here is the Axe FX 3 running a Dual Rectifier:

Aliasing performance is much better. Even at -155dB there's very little sign of aliasing in the same range.

 

[contrario]

For reference, here is the Axe FX 3 running a Dual Rectifier:
View attachment 26490
View attachment 26491


Aliasing performance is much better. Even at -155dB there's very little sign of aliasing in the same range.

This is state-of-the-art modelling.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fortunately, none of all this affects me in the slightest. And I always order extra pubes with my pizza. For that crunchy goodness.

 

[Orvillain]

Fortunately, none of all this affects me in the slightest. And I always order extra pubes with my pizza. For that crunchy goodness.

As is the German way!