Helix JCM800 2203 Request Thread (FW 3.70 new Brit 2203)!

[EOengineer]

I’m no coder, but would it be that difficult for Line6 to add a bright cap and a toggle to the existing model?

The actual software engineering is the easy part since they already have a well established framework they know well.

My guess is the process of temporarily unmodding the existing amp, remeasuring and recalibrating/revalidating everything is a process. L6 seems to want to recreate actual physical amps they have versus just making digital circuits based off of schematics. I get that and think it’s kind of a neat approach.

That said, if they don’t want to futz with their modded 2204 because someone loves it (or perhaps someone’s feelings get hurt by acknowledging most actual Marshall lovers HATE the mods) original 2204s aren’t unobtanium, even in the current gear market. They can just go get one, clean her up, and get to work.

Model a Ceriatone if you have to. Mine sounds incredible. Hell, I’ll GIVE it to them if it means we get a good 800.

 

[James Freeman]

As of 2023 the only hardware modeler company that understands, respects the original design, and accurately emulates these classic Marshall amps is Fractal.

edit: meme redacted.

Line 6 have come a long way since the POD but it seems they are frozen in the 90s when it comes to Marshalls.

 

[Byrdman]

The actual software engineering is the easy part since they already have a well established framework they know well.

My guess is the process of temporarily unmodding the existing amp, remeasuring and recalibrating/revalidating everything is a process. L6 seems to want to recreate actual physical amps they have versus just making digital circuits based off of schematics. I get that and think it’s kind of a neat approach.

That said, if they don’t want to futz with their modded 2204 because someone loves it (or perhaps someone’s feelings get hurt by acknowledging most actual Marshall lovers HATE the mods) original 2204s aren’t unobtanium, even in the current gear market. They can just go get one, clean her up, and get to work.

Model a Ceriatone if you have to. Mine sounds incredible. Hell, I’ll GIVE it to them if it means we get a good 800.

I agree. Since they already have a Line 6 2204 MOD amp in the lineup, I would think they could add something like a L6 2204 BC at least until they want to revisit and model it from the ground up.

 

[GTR37]

I’m no coder, but would it be that difficult for Line6 to add a bright cap and a toggle to the existing model?

That’s my thoughts to add a bright cap toggle with 3 values

 

[Stone]

Im pretty sure they wont do that, if anything they will just make another amp and relegate the 2204 to the legacy section
if they even consider it
out of all the Helix users in the world there is most certainly only a very small % of people not happy with the current 2204

 

[metropolis_4]

So many digital Marshalls sound like a caricature of a hot rodded Marshall. I feel like that’s what Line 6 did too. It sounds like what they think guitarists want a Marshall to sound like instead of sounding like a real Marshall.

But IME at least the Line 6 Marshalls are better than the QC Marshalls. It was near impossible to get the QC Plexi to clean up

 

[EOengineer]

That’s my thoughts to add a bright cap toggle with 3 values

Hard agree. The 3 way cap mod many boutique Marshall clone builders offer is essential for anyone using a 4 hole or single channel 800.

IMO the 2204/2203 would have escaped a lot of the bad wrap it received in the 90s and 2000s if the original amps had been built with the option from the factory.

Maybe one day we get surprised with a new stock 1959, 2204, and maybe a SuperBass. Who knows.

 

[GTR37]

So many digital Marshalls sound like a caricature of a hot rodded Marshall. I feel like that’s what Line 6 did too. It sounds like what they think guitarists want a Marshall to sound like instead of sounding like a real Marshall.

But IME at least the Line 6 Marshalls are better than the QC Marshalls. It was near impossible to get the QC Plexi to clean up

Ironically I thought the JCM800 in the QC was really good as was the Silver Jubilee

 

[James Freeman]

Maybe one day we get surprised with a new stock 1959, 2204, and maybe a SuperBass. Who knows.

Jubilee, AFD100.
That should cover the entire classic era of Marshalls up to the 90s, from there stuff like Soldano, 5150 and Rectifiers started to appear.

edit:
Technically, the AFD100 combines two famous mods to the JCM800 so it's not stock.
Another popular mod from that era was the Jose Arredondo mod to a Super Lead.

 

[James Freeman]

Helix Reddit... where youngsters dwell, even they understand the troublesome situation of Marshall models in the Helix.

source

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What is it with Line 6 and questionable Marshall models?
There's only like 3 stock models you have to nail to cover most of the desired classic Marshalls.

JTM45 (100pF bright cap).
1959 Super Lead (Metal Panel, MK1, '70s spec) [0.0022nF coupling, 4.7nF bright, 470p/33k tonestack, 0.1nF presence].
JCM 800 2203 or lower B+ 2204.
Supplement with a Silver Jubilee 2555 and maybe a few famous mods like #34 and Jose and you're golden.


PS.
To 'bypass' the bright cap in a virtual model turn the Gain to 10 and lower the input volume before the model, very simple.
But to intentionally butcher the original amp because "it's too bright with Gain on 4 and people will complain" is very sad, only.

 

[EOengineer]

To 'bypass' the bright cap in a virtual model turn the Gain to 10 and lower the input volume before the model, very simple.
But to intentionally butcher the original amp because "it's too bright with Gain on 4 and people will complain" is very sad, only.

Or just 3 way bright cap mod that mofo and celebrate with a good bottle of bourbon like dog intended.

 

[James Freeman]

Or just 3 way bright cap mod that mofo and celebrate with a good bottle of bourbon like dog intended.

The problem with that is Line 6's method might be interpolating measured filters and not a true RC network emulation, so instead of 10 filters you would need 30, that's probably why they don't fix models even if it's something simple as adding a cap or adding that "pull fat" on the Mark IV tonestack.

 

[kartikg3]

Helix Reddit... where youngsters dwell, even they understand the troublesome situation of Marshall models in the Helix.

source
View attachment 7759

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What is it with Line 6 and questionable Marshall models?
There's only like 3 stock models you have to nail to cover most of the desired classic Marshalls.

JTM45 (100pF bright cap).
1959 Super Lead (Metal Panel, MK1, '70s spec) [0.0022nF coupling, 4.7nF bright, 470p/33k tonestack, 0.1nF presence].
JCM 800 2203 or lower B+ 2204.
Supplement with a Silver Jubilee 2555 and maybe a few famous mods like #34 and Jose and you're golden.


PS.
To 'bypass' the bright cap in a virtual model turn the Gain to 10 and lower the input volume before the model, very simple.
But to intentionally butcher the original amp because "it's too bright with Gain on 4 and people will complain" is very sad, only.

Rofl I am routine_bet2563. I feel young now.

 

[SwirlyMaple]

Rofl I am routine_bet2563. I feel young now.

When I saw the Reddit post, my immediate thought was “I bet all of them are members at TGF”

 

[SwirlyMaple]

The problem with that is Line 6's method might be interpolating measured filters and not a true RC network emulation, so instead of 10 filters you would need 30, that's probably why they don't fix models even if it's something simple as adding a cap or adding that "pull fat" on the Mark IV tonestack.

Based on their video they made of the modeling process, their in house tools like a lot like matlab/simulink based stuff. So I think it very likely is a circuit network emulation, but it might have additional calibration filters throughout.

 

[James Freeman]

When I saw the Reddit post, my immediate thought was “I bet all of them are members at TGF”

I'm not on reddit but I specifically googled 'JCM800 Helix reddit' for research.
It's the amount of exposure and agreement that matters, read between the lines!

Based on their video they made of the modeling process, their in house tools like a lot like matlab/simulink based stuff. So I think it very likely is a circuit network emulation, but it might have additional calibration filters throughout.

Maybe it's time to improve the component modeling tools that will work closer to the real amp without so much additional hands-on work?
Maybe add an 'idealized' category where models are made from schematics only without measuring and gradually tweak that, ala Fractal?

Anyway, things are going very slowly on the amp modeling side and are never fixed or tweaked.
Can you imagine the only JCM800 being totally screwed for 8 year on Fractal and called out by users only to be completely ignored?

 

[holoholo]

Maybe add an 'idealized' category where models are made from schematics only without measuring and gradually tweak that, ala Fractal?

I asked for this in the DI thread and there didn’t seem to be interest

 

[MirrorProfiles]

found this old video I did comparing a 1981 JCM800 2204 to Helix (AFAIK Helix’s reference amp was built in this time period). I dial back the gain where you can hear the bright cap at work:



got an offer I couldn’t refuse on that amp, but I do miss it. Pointer knobs (the best) and really great condition for its age

 

[James Freeman]

Another very good reason to have a great stock 2203 is AC/DC tone, Gain at about 4-5 where the preamp is nice and bright then boost with a high output wireless, just like Angus did.
Oh and the period correct Marshall 4x12 with G12-65 which is also very important for his tone.
If you are an AC/DC fan and want to replicate their tones in the Helix, yeah... not happening without a good stock MV Marshall.

found this old video I did comparing a 1981 JCM800 2204 to Helix (AFAIK Helix’s reference amp was built in this time period). I dial back the gain where you can hear the bright cap at work:

The real amp is still crunchy at 10 while the Helix model is woofy not matter how you set it.
It's not only the bright cap that is missing form Line 6's reference amp.

 

[mikah912]

Anyway, things are going very slowly on the amp modeling side and are never fixed or tweaked.
Can you imagine the only JCM800 being totally screwed for 8 year on Fractal and called out by users only to be completely ignored?

I say this as a a fan of both companies and a proud owner of both Helix and FM9: Line 6 is very slow, comparatively speaking, with amp modeling, but I don't think you can characterize the Helix JCM800 as "totally screwed".

AC/DC tone is absolutely achievable with Helix Marshalls. More generally, I've watched multiple YT shootouts between the Helix and Fractal JCM800 where there just isn't much daylight in-between. I'd do one myself but I honestly don't think it worth the trouble.

I'm not dismissing the missing bright cap. It clearly matters to some extent, but it seems hyperbolic to say it's totally screwed. They just have amp modeling priorities for their limited resources, and getting completely unrepresented stuff like a Diezel or Dumble have taken precedence over new/different Marshalls. As a fan of modded Marshalls, that's not what I personally want, but I also don't feel ignored, per se.