Fractal Talk

[JiveTurkey]

I am more interested in whose X Recto they modelled

Please god, no

 

[James Freeman]

No, the models don't have the same tone stacks.

However, our reference JVM410H has 47K resistors in series with the treble pots.

A JVM410HJS also has 47K resistors in series with the treble pots.

The question is whether our reference amp is incorrect or did Marshall start putting those resistors in there at some point. I suspect the latter.

One of the common complaints with the JVM410H is squealing when you turn the treble up. This is because the chassis is laid out incorrectly. The output transformer is on the wrong side and couples into the input stage.

I suspect Marshall changed the tone stack to reduce the crosstalk and address the squealing complaints.

That's interesting, thanks for sharing.

Can we just choose the JCM800 tonestack to have the "standard" response from the JVM410 model?

 

[MirrorProfiles]

@PippPriss kindly opened his amp up to help here, absolute legend.

 

[State of Epicicity]

I asked in the AMA:

Has the JVM had 47K in series with the treble pots in every release, or was this something that started after a certain point?

Marshall JVM410HJS - real amp versus Axe3

As well as feeling like the HJS model was dark sounding, I’ve always felt the same about the regular JVM. It’s typically an amp I think of as quite bright and almost twangy, and to get those kind of tones always took some work. The recent Bogren plugin immediately reminded me of the JVM tones...

forum.fractalaudio.com

Marshall JVM410HJS - real amp versus Axe3

As well as feeling like the HJS model was dark sounding, I’ve always felt the same about the regular JVM. It’s typically an amp I think of as quite bright and almost twangy, and to get those kind of tones always took some work. The recent Bogren plugin immediately reminded me of the JVM tones...

forum.fractalaudio.com

 

[FractalAudio]

@PippPriss kindly opened his amp up to help here, absolute legend.

View attachment 43694

The treble pots are the fourth pots from the left. The circuitry around them is not visible.

Even if this amp did not have the 47K resistors that's not enough evidence for me to change the models. We need information from Marshall as to when they incorporated this change and how many amps were made with it. The models need to reflect the majority of amps in the field.

 

[grafter.puzzler]

I've been lurking this thread and the one at FAS's forum. It's been a fascinating discussion. It's crazy how much variety there can be in mass produced amps. I also have a new found appreciation for Fractal's commitment to accuracy

 

[James Freeman]

While we argue whether the JVM410 model is shit or hit, here's some Recto tones.
I call this piece "the steak was better before the maggot infestation", enjoy.

 

[State of Epicicity]

The treble pots are the fourth pots from the left. The circuitry around them is not visible.

Even if this amp did not have the 47K resistors that's not enough evidence for me to change the models. We need information from Marshall as to when they incorporated this change and how many amps were made with it. The models need to reflect the majority of amps in the field.

You could always have two tonestacks available for it, one with the resistors and one without.

 

[PippPriss]

Hi Cliff, Hi all,

I have no Fractal unit (unfortunately), so I have no horse in this race - just only know kind-of what's being discussed here -, but Ed asked me to post the pictures here, so here they come!

More pictures to come:

The main resistors: R202 and R201, are the right values according to the schematics - 33K and 39K. My JVM is completely unmodded and seems to have been produced in 2018.
It would be super interesting to see the control board of your own JVM @FractalAudio , to see if you eventually got a "turd" with a misplaced component (I worked in the field of placing electrical components onto PCBs, these things can happen and go unnoticed, depending on the rigorosity of QC work done and the test-points).
Here a picture of the entire control board for further verification.

 

[yek]

I owned an original (first revision) JVM 410H. Some time before 2010 I think, right before I switch to Fractal. Really hated the amp. Harsh, thin and noisy.

 

[State of Epicicity]

Harsh, thin and noisy.

Reminds me of an ex-girlfriend.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

That's interesting, thanks for sharing.

Can we just choose the JCM800 tonestack to have the "standard" response from the JVM410 model?

JVM has a 200k treble pot vs 250k on most others.

So far we’ve had

- the designer of the amp say it shouldn’t have 47k (who has worked at Marshall within the last 5 years)
- the official easily available schematic doesn’t have it, and no other schematic for this amp showing otherwise.
- an owner of an amp made 11 years after launch doesn’t have it
- no mention online of the tonal change or PCB change anywhere online besides Cliff’s amp. Marshall forums and amp modding communities are pretty up to speed on this stuff, and guitarists would notice if the JVM suddenly sounded different.
- Every video on youtube is getting plenty of brightness from the amp without cranking the settings

I have no doubts that the majority of JVM’s out there, and especially the ones that made it onto commercially available recordings from 2007-2016 have the brighter voicing. The other point is opinion, but I don’t think the amp sounds as good with that change. It was never designed with it to be there, and if it was added, it wasn’t by the person who designed the original concept for the amp. The change also only takes away tonal possibilities, it’s not adding anything. And the suggestion of why it might be on Cliff’s amp is suggesting it’s because of a design flaw, rather than for any kind of tonal benefit. The Fractal model doesn’t need to worry about crosstalk, we can have the good tone cake and eat it.

I have no doubts about the vast majority of JVM’s in existence matching the schematic. If it was common for them to have the 47k resistor there would be way more talk online about it being a thing. Happy to contact Marshall myself and check whether there’s an updated schematic or if they’ve added this change recently.

 

[State of Epicicity]

the designer of the amp say it shouldn’t have 47k (who has worked at Marshall within the last 5 years)

Oh cool. I couldn't tell that from what I read. Was this in a private message?

 

[KingsXJJ]

Weve been saying exactly this since the start of this accuracy argument

You may have been saying that but others were arguing against my point. Which is not even in the post I was responding to when you made this comment. Accuracy in context is important.

 

[Mongillo19]

You may have been saying that but others were arguing against my point. Which is not even in the post I was responding to when you made this comment. Accuracy in context is important.

We aren't getting anywhere with this endless circle. We've moved on to hopefully getting the JVM to be accurate and seem to be making progress.

I know, we all know, you are saying there should be two options (a cliff version and the real version). Sure sounds great, but the fractal was made to recreate digital amps as close as possible to the real thing. It's in their description of the unit, it's been made a point endless amounts of times here and on the FAS forum about how accurate it is to amps to the point where people sell the real thing "because it's so close". Imo accuracy should be the #1 priority and idk if it's even an opinion. It's quite literally in their product description.

Again, totally cool you want a Cliff version option but as others have stated I think that would take more time than you realize and to me that should only come after all the amps are as accurate as possible. Nobody is getting upset or digging there heels in. We are just asking for the fractal to do what it does best, emulate analog gear accurately.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Oh cool. I couldn't tell that from what I read. Was this in a private message?

Yeah, via PM.

 

[KingsXJJ]

Really glad to see the JVM issues being investigated. A thank you to those involved!

 

[KingsXJJ]

We aren't getting anywhere with this endless circle. We've moved on to hopefully getting the JVM to be accurate and seem to be making progress.

I know, we all know, you are saying there should be two options (a cliff version and the real version). Sure sounds great, but the fractal was made to recreate digital amps as close as possible to the real thing. It's in their description of the unit, it's been made a point endless amounts of times here and on the FAS forum about how accurate it is to amps to the point where people sell the real thing "because it's so close". Imo accuracy should be the #1 priority and idk if it's even an opinion. It's quite literally in their product description.

Again, totally cool you want a Cliff version option but as others have stated I think that would take more time than you realize and to me that should only come after all the amps are as accurate as possible. Nobody is getting upset or digging there heels in. We are just asking for the fractal to do what it does best, emulate analog gear accurately.

Thanks for the response. I just don’t appreciate my point being reduced to what you posted about it. It wasn’t accurate. So I replied. Hopefully that won’t be needed again. It would really help if people did not mischaracterize what I say.

 

[Orvillain]

Gotta say, Cliff is a real fucking gangster for even deigning to talk to us. When was the last time any of the Neural developers or executive team talked to any of us and responded to any queries, criticisms, or wishlist ideas??

You really can't argue against his passion and belief in the project. I admire it so much.

 

[Orvillain]

Ah I didn't realize you were outside the US. Yeah forget that lol

Aye, Ed and I are real people.

<ducks>