For recording guitar, basic is all anybody needs. And if you're reamping, using usb from the modeler works better than using an interface, especially with an FM3. That's why all modelers have usb audio. No other modeler has this problem, only the FM3.
FM3 as audio interface?
- Thread starter GuitarJon
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For recording guitar, basic is all anybody needs. And if you're reamping, using usb from the modeler works better than using an interface, especially with an FM3. That's why all modelers have usb audio. No other modeler has this problem, only the FM3.
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Because consumers are being oppressed and need an outlet to vent their near infinite level of frustratedness to their oppressors.
JiveTurkey
Goatlord
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I was actually referring to bitching about the QC saying it could do things while actually being full of shit.
But yes; I'd rather let an actual interface do the heavy lifting. Usb reamping is a valid point. Certainly.
JiveTurkey
Goatlord
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On an FM3 note; I sat down and played through mine a good long time this evening.
Bruce
Shredder
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It doesn’t even have a mic pre. How does this serve as “all anyone needs” to record guitar? What if I want to mic my cab? This is a pretty basic function most modelers will not do. Forget about recording a nylon or steel acoustic. Then once you record it, what do you plan on doing with it? I guess no outboard involved in the mix. Kiss my favorite comps and EQ goodbye. And this is still basic.
synthpenguin
Roadie
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A 30 sample offset is a big deal imo. Yes, sure, you can compensate for it manually, but no I don't agree that this is expected with such a simple setup with modern gear.
FWIW:
Gearspace - View Single Post - Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base
Post 15392913 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.gearspace.com
There's a whole database of latency figures here, going back a very long time. But there are also a lot of comments about some interfaces and some drivers reporting latency correctly, and then others reporting it incorrectly - sometimes with the same driver manufacturer!!
You'll see screenshots of the Oblique Audio RTL utility, and they often have columns for reported latency, and columns for measured latency (physical loopback measurement) and they quite often are different.
Of course, but according to those posts, many interfaces there, including cheaper ones, have only a 2 to 5 sample difference between reported and measured RTL at smaller buffer sizes, and some like the MOTU M series (200USD interfaces) show no difference at all at sample rates like 48kHz. Interfaces like the generally bad BLA and UR22 interfaces stand out because there is a wider offset, not to mention that measured RTL is also pretty mediocre at 7.5 to 9ms with a buffer of 64 at 48kHz SR, giving them real world performance that is worse than many cheaper interfaces (both are more expensive than the MOTU M2, for example). It's not a good thing for those units, just as it isn't for the FM3.
So, yes, while one can workaround it, it's not standard to have to at this price point for such a simple hardware setup, and so hopefully they can fix it just as they fixed it on the Axe FX, especially since they recognize that it's an issue :)
An interface is useful if you want to record other things, but for a lot of people who only want to record a guitar through a modeler, an interface isn't useful and only gets in the way, especially if you're reamping. That's why all modelers have usb audio. All other modelers work great for that. Only the FM3 has this problem. Saying the solution is to buy an interface when no other modeler makes you do that is pretty cold.
synthpenguin
Roadie
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Yeah, and even any other modeler aside, the FM3 is marketed as being perfect for exactly this sort of setup, period. Fractal recognizes it is an issue too, so there isn't even debate here. It can be manually compensated for and that's useful knowledge for anyone who didn't already know that, so I'm glad it was talked about in this thread, but it's largely besides the point. I'm glad it was fixed for Axe FX users, and I hope it is for FM3 users as well. I don't even get the resistance to talking about it. Just ignore it if it's not relevant to you?
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Show me one post in this thread saying no one should discuss it. The merits of the melodrama, certainly, but no one is saying you can't discuss it. And if we're keeping score, calling it "unusable" is exactly that, melodrama.
And if there's any question as to why Fractal most certainly locked the thread, here ya go-
You're literally repeating yourself over and over again.
Now say "Yeah but yeah but yeah but" 5x to yourself and read what I wrote above again.
synthpenguin
Roadie
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I never called it unusable. I obviously don't think it's unusable (???). I think it's a good product, like I've said, and I think the USB Audio IS usable (as I said in the first reply you quoted). I think this one thing should be a higher priority because of how that aspect is marketed though, and I thought Fractal's response was shitty considering that. Repeating myself here, yes, but if it was marketed as just a bonus feature, then I think it's fine as-is as this sort of issue is relatively common with many lower-end interfaces.
Also, I didn't say anyone said I couldn't discuss it. I was referring to the people saying "don't use it as an interface" over and over and over again (please see what I was replying to with that comment) or claiming that people "just want to rake Fractal over the coals" (??). It is marketed as an interface, so I think resistance to discussing how it performs as such but replying with "get a proper interface" etc makes no sense. If someone doesn't want to use it that way, that's fine, but other people obviously are interested in that, hence the thread.
And if we are going to be all weird about this, 2 of those quotes aren't of me (the first of which I disagree with, as it certainly is a serious pro product, as the second to last comment of mine you quote specifically says, and a great product too, and the second of which I thought was silly and petty), and 2 of them are quotes of the same comment which aren't even referring to the latency issue at all (so, taken out of context).
In the Fractal thread - the reference to "impressive USB audio" and the marketing was referenced only once but the post creator. The rest of the thread was talking about measuring latency and alternative devices, all very courteous and then Fractal locked it.
Yes people will repeat themselves but most of the responses here are to just buy an audio interface. That isn't an option for some.
Stratzrus
Roadie
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Just to be clear, and I apologize for being late to the party, have the III and the FM9 been improved regarding the latency issue?
I have a second generation Presonus Scarlett 6i6. Would that be a better choice for going into my DAW? If so, should I go from the Fractal to the Scarlett using Audio Out or SPDIF?
The 3 and FM9 have had the fix and I believe it has solved the issue.
Whether to use an external device depends on your needs and what kind of routing you need
It may give you extra flexibility depending on the unit.
Edit - I see you now mention spdif - if you can do that then great
My external device has spdif which I use but I can't direct monitor of that input so I have to do some creative routing.
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If you do get time that would be awesome - if as a workaround I need to set a manual then that is fine but I think it would drive anyone nuts if they have to keep changing based on the preset
One of the use cases of having USB audio in your multieffects unit is, for instance, being able to play through it with computer plugins. For instance, you can plug your guitar and use internal FM3 effects with plugins. This could be an important feature for many users.
For this use case, it's a must to have low RTL times. This can be done satisfactorily with cheap multis (I've tried it with a Mooer GE250, running its effects along with NAM from the PC, with just one AD+DA conversion). I measured physical RTL: 7 ms. This value is perfectly useable, and it's a good value coming from a cheap unit.
FM3 should be able to do this. And, for its price in Europe (how much, 1500€?) should do it remarkably better than the GE250. It's marketed for that.
Sorry, but I think this is more important than having a couple more amp sims to add to the zillions it already has.
And sorry again, but I do think it's an issue, not a little detail that can be workarounded somehow so shouldn't be a worry, IMO. For the money, there are no excuses for not having this sorted.
For this use case, it's a must to have low RTL times. This can be done satisfactorily with cheap multis (I've tried it with a Mooer GE250, running its effects along with NAM from the PC, with just one AD+DA conversion). I measured physical RTL: 7 ms. This value is perfectly useable, and it's a good value coming from a cheap unit.
FM3 should be able to do this. And, for its price in Europe (how much, 1500€?) should do it remarkably better than the GE250. It's marketed for that.
Sorry, but I think this is more important than having a couple more amp sims to add to the zillions it already has.
And sorry again, but I do think it's an issue, not a little detail that can be workarounded somehow so shouldn't be a worry, IMO. For the money, there are no excuses for not having this sorted.
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You're talking about something different.
This topic isn't about RTL. It is about driver reported latency.
The RTL for Axe FX III or FM3 could be 13ms, and it wouldn't matter very much because you can monitor with no latency using the box itself. IE: RTL only matters if you're going to monitor through the DAW.
And this is true for any audio interface. Mostly.
Some interfaces like my Presonus Quantum REQUIRE you to monitor through the DAW. I cannot plug into my Quantum and hear a guitar signal unless I open Reaper or Cubase or whatever else I'm using. It is hella annoying actually. But I digress...
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They've solved it as much as they can for the III and FM9 I believe.
I'd always recommend a dedicated audio interface to be honest. For all of the reasons that @MirrorProfiles listed before. So yes, SPDIF would be the approach I would take.
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The 30 sample offset is with the Axe FX III, and it equates to 0.625ms at 48k sample-rate with a buffer size of 64. I don't think that is a big deal at all.
The FM3 probably has a much higher value, and it'll be a bigger deal to some.
But again... if you're monitoring in real-time through the FM3 and not through the DAW.... it isn't a showstopper.
The topic of the thread is using FM3 as an audio interface... Isn't it?
Yeah, I get there are 2 different subjects here: reported latency offset and RTL. Both related to USB audio, or audio interface capabilities of the FM3.
I get all said here about adjusting the offset manually and whatnot. It's fine. I don't know much about it honestly, not pretending to enter a field you all know much more than me.
You're right, I was talking about RTL because I read here that it's around 12-13 ms... And I find it unacceptable for a device costing 1500€ which marketing says it has impressive USB audio capabilities.
If you use only internal effects, you can monitor through the unit without latency (well, just the own latency of the unit), that's just fine. But if you want to play also with plugins from the computer, you need low RTL. It's an essential feature for any audio interface, IMO. But not a hyper low RTL, just a normal RTL for todays tech, which can be achieved by cheap multieffects without problems.
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Yeah this is what I don't know myself either. 12-13ms is acceptable if the buffer size is 512. It is not so acceptable if the buffer size is 64.
But nobody has actually said anything in detail when it comes to the FM3.
@GuitarJon what latency figures do you get for which buffer sizes? You (or anyone with an FM3) could measure them quite quickly using the Oblique RTL Utility here: https://oblique-audio.com/rtl-utility.php
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