FM3 as audio interface?

[Elf]

Maybe they should update the web site?

FM3 Mk II Turbo Amp Modeler/FX Processor​

*Design is my passion

 

[Orvillain]

I have no need for gapless switching - I do have a need for a useable audio interface which I was owed to believe it was when I purchased it.

How is it unusable?? You simply adjust one number in your DAW, like you would any other audio interface, and you're good to go.

I have a Presonus Quantum - I still have to have a 2 sample adjustment if I want my audio to be dead on where it should be.

You guys are looking to rake Fractal over the coals for an issue that is incredibly common to digital audio.

 

[synthpenguin]

For sure. I always use a dedicated AI. Amps, helix, Kemper, etc etc. If you are serious about recording, you need to consider an AI.

I agree that using a dedicated AI is almost always better for multiple reasons (though I sometimes use the Helix USB audio just for convenience), but I think the issue people are having is more that the FM3 is a 1100USD pro-level product that is marketed as having an "extremely high quality" audio interface with no dedicated AI required (even if Fractal would probably recommend a dedicated one as ideal too). If they see it as more of a tertiary feature, a bonus, then that's totally cool and understandable, but they devote a lot of copy to it from literally the first paragraph of the product page, which I think ends up being a little misleading as these sort of latency issues don't really compete with the USB Audio on much cheaper modelers (let alone very inexpensive audio interfaces).

The FM3 sounds great and has a lot going for it though, of course. I don't think the 3 would ever be right for me because, while I'm not someone with very heavy needs compared to a lot of modeler users, I know I'd run into a few of the limitations and missing features a lot, but I think it's a great buy for a lot of people. That said, for someone new to digital guitar stuff making this quite-large investment based on the marketing saying it's in all-in-one unit for recording, and that it works perfectly as the center of a mobile recording rig, it seems that aspect isn't going to give them a great experience, which is unfortunate.

 

[DrewJD82]

I'm just curious though, to anybody here with an Axe Fx 3: when you are using it as your USB audio interface, are you experiencing any issues like a delay, even after the "fix"? And if so, is that same thing also happening with your other interfaces?

In my case the answer is no, but maybe this isn't the same with other PC's/daws. In my case it's just happening with the Fractal devices. So I don't feel like the issue with the Axe Fx III is fixed completely. It has improved, sure! But not fixed 100% (if I compare it to my experiences with various other USB interfaces that I have used over the years).

I had dropouts before the last patch, mostly after my iMac went to sleep. It was never an issue on my Macbook, though. Since that last patch I’ve been 100% issue free. The only thing I haven’t done is re-amp as I just never really put that into my workflow, but when I was doing it, I never had any issues. I can’t even remember now if I did the Recording Delay adjustment in Logic when I first got the III or not, I seem to recall scratching my head at the idea of needing to.

 

[Orvillain]

FM3 is a 1100USD pro-level product that is marketed as having an "extremely high quality" audio interface

Which by all accounts, is true. A 30 sample offset isn't anything to get overly enthused about IMHO.

And that's coming from the guy who just spent an hour measuring latency at the sample level with my Helix and pedals!

 

[aivoryuk]

Not to sound biased but I think we are overacting a little bit.

Even if you remove USB audio entirely it's still very much a professional device imo.

Hopefully they fix it soon but they have quite the back log and tons of people ask for a bunch of things. I'm sure they will get to it. In the meantime you can plug in to a Audio Interface to make due (which imo the fractal line is overrated as an audio interface, even on the III. I always recommend a dedicated AI). However, there is no work around to gapless switching, the missing amp models, etc. so I imagine those are taking priority.

But the Fractal FM3 is marketed on having impressive USB audio capabilities and the hub of a recording studio.
It isn't cheap and people save their money without the additional cost of an additional interface.
How many amp models are in the Fractal? I'm sure the omission of 1 or 2 so something else can take priority is not the end of the world.

 

[GuitarJon]

I had dropouts before the last patch, mostly after my iMac went to sleep. It was never an issue on my Macbook, though. Since that last patch I’ve been 100% issue free. The only thing I haven’t done is re-amp as I just never really put that into my workflow, but when I was doing it, I never had any issues. I can’t even remember now if I did the Recording Delay adjustment in Logic when I first got the III or not, I seem to recall scratching my head at the idea of needing to.

That's great! I never use Mac so maybe it's different with windows.

 

[Orvillain]

But the Fractal FM3 is marketed on having impressive USB audio capabilities and the hub of a recording studio.
It isn't cheap and people save their money without the additional cost of an additional interface.
How many amp models are in the Fractal? I'm sure the omission of 1 or 2 so something else can take priority is not the end of the world.

Again, how is it not any of that? It seems to me that the issue at hand occurs with all sorts of interfaces, which is specifically why DAW's provide the option to offset the recording latency in samples, so that you can measure, adjust, and then not have to worry about it again.

Not all audio interfaces are made by companies like RME, where the drivers are written in-house and are thus absolutely and completely controllable. Most audio interfaces use off the shelf drivers that are adapter to their hardware. The most common one is the Thesycon driver, which whilst not too bad... does suffer from poor latency performance, and also poor driver reporting performance.

This may not even be Fractal's issue as such, and more down to them being limited by a third party tool that they simply cannot replace at this point in time.

Measure your latency. Adjust the offset. Stop worrying about the issue.

 

[aivoryuk]

How is it unusable?? You simply adjust one number in your DAW, like you would any other audio interface, and you're good to go.

I have a Presonus Quantum - I still have to have a 2 sample adjustment if I want my audio to be dead on where it should be.

You guys are looking to rake Fractal over the coals for an issue that is incredibly common to digital audio.

As far as I understand it, prior to the fix in the axe 3 - importing a preset could change the latency, which would mean I would have to measure and change the latency.
I've got no problem changing the offset but it has to be stable.

 

[DrewJD82]

As far as I understand it, prior to the fix in the axe 3 - importing a preset could change the latency, which would mean I would have to measure and change the latency.
I've got no problem changing the offset but it has to be stable.

I don’t believe I’ve ever once heard of someone importing a preset and experiencing increased latency as a result. I could be wrong, but I know I’ve downloaded some pretty big presets on my OG III and the most that’s ever happened was I ran the CPU up. I just stops outputting all audio at that point, nothing slowed down.

 

[GuitarJon]

As far as I understand it, prior to the fix in the axe 3 - importing a preset could change the latency, which would mean I would have to measure and change the latency.
I've got no problem changing the offset but it has to be stable.

Don't you just mean loading up a different with more blocks?

 

[yek]

I don’t believe I’ve ever once heard of someone importing a preset and experiencing increased latency as a result. I could be wrong, but I know I’ve downloaded some pretty big presets on my OG III and the most that’s ever happened was I ran the CPU up. I just stops outputting all audio at that point, nothing slowed down.

Processing latency of recording latency?
Different things.

 

[aivoryuk]

Don't you just mean loading up a different with more blocks?

Yes - I only use amp and cab block for recording so never measured it with other blocks
Looking back over the axe 3 release notes for usb 1.14
"Importing a preset no longer changes the latency
Latency no longer drifts when an audio stream is active in certain cases
(macOS only) Latency no longer changes after a period of time after powering on the unit
Overall latency of the unit itself has been reduced"

Now of course there are differences between latency and offset recording but it was tackled in the same period.

If I've misunderstood then I accept that.

 

[Orvillain]

As far as I understand it, prior to the fix in the axe 3 - importing a preset could change the latency, which would mean I would have to measure and change the latency.
I've got no problem changing the offset but it has to be stable.

I don't believe the reported latency will change based on the preset, but I'm happy to check.

IE: For my earlier value of 30 samples... if the driver is updating its reporting based on what is loaded in the preset, then I should expect that a 30 sample shift will always work.

And if it doesn't, then that means the driver isn't updating its reported value to account for whatever is inside the preset.

I'll take a look tomorrow.

I suspect that processing latency can change in the preset, but that reported to the DAW latency will be a fixed per-buffer value.

 

[Orvillain]

FWIW:

Gearspace - View Single Post - Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base

Post 15392913 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.

gearspace.com

There's a whole database of latency figures here, going back a very long time. But there are also a lot of comments about some interfaces and some drivers reporting latency correctly, and then others reporting it incorrectly - sometimes with the same driver manufacturer!!

You'll see screenshots of the Oblique Audio RTL utility, and they often have columns for reported latency, and columns for measured latency (physical loopback measurement) and they quite often are different.

 

[LP59]

You guys are looking to rake Fractal over the coals for an issue that is incredibly common to digital audio.

I have never seen a usb audio interface, including all the top amp modelers, that has 12 ms error in the reported latency like the FM3.

 

[LP59]

I'm just curious though, to anybody here with an Axe Fx 3: when you are using it as your USB audio interface, are you experiencing any issues like a delay, even after the "fix"?

It was bad before the fix, but it's ok now.

 

[Orvillain]

I have never seen a usb audio interface, including all the top amp modelers, that has 12 ms error in the reported latency like the FM3.

Sure, 12ms isn't really ideal. It isn't what you'd want. I'm very glad the Axe3 had a fix. I hope you FM3 owners get it eventually.

 

[Bruce]

For the stuff you do Jon, I’d totally recommend a dedicated high quality interface and possibly a patchbay to keep all your gear and load boxes hooked up to. The quality of your productions, and for the work you do, it’s well worth having a dedicated interface for it.

The thought of running my studio off a guitar modeller fills me with serious anxiety.

100% this. Get a proper interface. These modelers only serve the most basic needs in terms of using them for an interface.

 

[Bruce]

How is it unusable?? You simply adjust one number in your DAW, like you would any other audio interface, and you're good to go.

I have a Presonus Quantum - I still have to have a 2 sample adjustment if I want my audio to be dead on where it should be.

You guys are looking to rake Fractal over the coals for an issue that is incredibly common to digital audio.

I remember starting out in protools 6 and there was no ADC. You had to line your sessions up manually.