Frodebro
Rock Star
- Messages
- 3,305
It’s a fine line between clever and stupid.
Fender Tone Master Pro: Episode IV - A New Hope
- Thread starter jellodog
- Start date
It’s a fine line between clever and stupid.
MTB1973
Roadie
- Messages
- 459
Tritium3H
Groupie
- Messages
- 56
It took you two minutes to realize it didn’t have an EXP pedal?
Just being a bit cheeky.
No offense meant. You didn’t like the TMP…fair enough.
Last edited:
ian_dissonance
Shredder
- Messages
- 1,668
I gave it a spin even without the exp because if it’s super awesome amazeballs otherwise compromise can always be made. Display and signal chain felt quite “beginner” oriented so I left it at that.It took you two minutes to realize it didn’t have an EXP pedal?
Just being a bit cheeky.
Tritium3H
Groupie
- Messages
- 56
There is no question that the TMP’s signal chain is limited, which indeed is a bummer. However, I still think the display and overall UI is wonderful. Truly, IMHO, the unit can be learned, navigated, and edited/programmed without ever feeling the need for a computer/tablet/phone editor.
Yes, in theory, one can access/edit/program everything necessary, locally, on the Fractal or Helix panels. However, in practice, it is an absolute PITA, especially when compared to their ancillary PC Editors. With my Fractal FM9T, I am constantly using FM9-Edit…requiring my laptop to be connected and running.
But then again, this would all be completely academic and secondary, if the core tones/dynamics/feel were lacking on the TMP. At least for me, I find the TMP’s modeling to be on par with fractal. There are some amps and effects I prefer on my FM9T — and, by comparison, there are some that I prefer on the TMP. The same goes with effects. For example, I absolutely LOVE the new Plate and Hall Convolution Reverbs on my TMP.
Just my opinion and preferences, everyone’s mileage will vary.
ChordInversion
Roadie
- Messages
- 660
I don't share some people's aversion to editors (not mobile, but computer). I love them, and I find them to be the best choice for me for any kind of detailed sound creation.
And once again, I've owned a TMP for over a year. I like it as a practice device. I don't like it for making sounds to fit songs. It has too many limitations for me to make it my main modeler. It also has an editor which is basically the on unit interface put on a computer screen (which I find far from ideal for the purpose of an editor).
The amp selection is likewise pretty spare, and notably lacking in Fender variety. Some don't care about that. I do.
And once again, I've owned a TMP for over a year. I like it as a practice device. I don't like it for making sounds to fit songs. It has too many limitations for me to make it my main modeler. It also has an editor which is basically the on unit interface put on a computer screen (which I find far from ideal for the purpose of an editor).
The amp selection is likewise pretty spare, and notably lacking in Fender variety. Some don't care about that. I do.
Last edited:
Jarick
Rock Star
- Messages
- 4,780
Okay here's my thoughts on the sounds of the device and after using for several days.
Bottom line: I think it's a killer modeler with the most enjoyable interface of anything I've used and it sounds really good. It's the closest I've found to a virtual amp and pedal board. It could very well replace my other modelers and a lot of other gear.
Amp modeling
I'm a pretty basic guy when it comes to amp models but I'm really picky about the tones. I don't really need a massive variety of amps so long as the basics are covered. I want a couple black panel Fenders (Deluxe, Twin), an AC30, a Jazz Chorus, a Plexi, an 800, a BE-100, and a 5150 III. So just about any amp modeler today can cover what I need.
The tones on the TMP are pretty plug and play and everything I tried sounded really good. I did test out the Marshalls and I didn't find them overly dark like the early sound clips. I also ran the TMP in the loop of my Axe 3 and messed around with a handful of models. The Fender was very competitive sonically. It generally sounded like it had more bass/treble whereas the Axe 3 sounded like it had a pushed midrange. On the Vox AC30, the TMP was brighter than the Fractal but when I picked the AC30 Brilliant model they were really close with the Fractal sounding brighter. On the BE-100, the Fractal is notoriously really dark and muffled sounding where the Fender has more gain and is much brighter.
Then I ran my Friedman JJ Junior in BE mode through a Suhr reactive load into the loop of the Fender. I think the Fender sounds closer to the real amp than the Fractal does. With stock settings the TMP has a really chunky bass where the JJ has tighter bass, but that could be the EL84 tubes. I lowered the master on the Fender model and lowered the bass and it's closer. I did have to turn up the gain and bass on the JJ though. The Fender is also more scooped sounding, so adding a bit of mids and scooping the JJ mids a bit got closer. Lastly the Fender was a bit bright so I did have to turn the treble and presence down. But after that they were really close. And both cleaned up pretty similarly.
Cab modeling
I haven't messed with this too much, but I generally like the Fender approach. It's a bunch of IR's shot at four different spots on the speaker (cap, cap edge, cone, cone edge) at a handful of distances, with several mics, and on/off axis. To me it sounds more realistic than a single mic in the Helix cabs or Fractal Dyna cab. There's actual bass in the SM57 model like you'd expect and not just mids and highs. That's something that bugs me about a lot of IR's...you should be able to get a kick ass sound out of a single SM57 if it's well placed, and a lot of factory cabs don't do well at that.
Flip side, it's a bit more realistic which means it's less smooth and can have more of a woofy or fizzy tone than other factory cabs. High/low cuts are more essential but they are effective. Same thing with impulse responses, they seemed to have more highs and lows than on the Fractal. And stock volume setting is way louder than the factory cab which is annoying.
The dual cab or dual mic feature is really nice. It's basically two pages of the same thing but you can see the position of each mic at the same time, plus there's a really good blend feature that normalizes the volume. Every company should do that (kudos to Fractal). You can only do two cabs or IR's at a time but I never need more than that.
One thing I'd like to see here is a stereo room mic built into the cab section. That's really nice to have on units like Fractal, some Neural DSP, and Kemper's Space feature.
Effects
Like amps I'm more of a quality over quantity guy. The original firmware was lacking a lot of good effects but the current version feels nearly complete to me. There's a ton of variety in everything and it all sounds really good. I tried running effects with the virtual amps as well as 4 cable method with my Friedman JJ Junior.
Drive pedals have a ton of variety, like two kinds of tube screamers, two kinds of Klons, three big muffs, just a huge variety. They sound really good, on par maybe even better than Helix, definitely better than Fractal. I say this with love, and maybe it's the UI, but the Fractal drive pedals often sound very similar to me. Helix pedals have more variety, and the Fender has that same variety in sound but might be a little cleaner sounding.
Tons of modulation options including a lot of cool Boss effects. You get the CE-2 and DC-2 and all kind of other standards like the Electric Mistress and Phase 90. But you also get some different ones like the CE-5 chorus and Boss phaser and vibrato. Pretty much anything I'd like to use is in here. Maybe the one critique is some of the modulation effects don't have a mix knob which would be a really nice quality of life feature.
Delays are pretty good although I think there could be more here. You have the basics covered especially in mono versions, but because Fender tries to stay close to the stock pedal layout, you may be missing some stereo options or things may not work as expected. For instance the analog delay which is a DM-2 model seems to have some weird ghost noise that sounds like the chip is being overloaded. It's neat but would be nice to dial that out if possible. Some models make the whole tone kind of dark which again the original may do but I'd like to have the option to turn that off. On the ping pong delay, the high cut only impacts the feedback repeats and not the first repeats. So it's more like virtual pedals for sure but I'd like to sometimes not have those limitations. However there's a killer Halo delay which is amazing and probably does just about anything I'd need.
Reverbs are okay although I haven't gone deep with all of them. The older models are pretty stale and one dimensional sounding but some of the newer ones are much more interesting. The convolution reverbs sound really good but seem to be really DSP intensive. I think there's some improvements that could be made here. There are a lot of cloud and shimmer ones I don't use much that I'll have to try.
Pitch effects are cool but there's some latency. It has a proper Eventide Micropitch though! Just like the current pedal version, it sounds awesome too. Not sure why nobody outside Fractal has done a proper dual detune pedal but Fender has one now. The virtual capo is alright but all of them sound weird to me when I tried the new Fractal firmware against the others. The POG model is cool, I haven't used the real thing, but it's way easier to use when you can see the proper pedal labels. Still it sounds a bit garbled and has latency.
Overall Thoughts
I've already talked about the UI earlier but as I said it's fantastic. Being able to see the actual amps/effects at a glance is killer, the knob switches are PHENOMENAL, extremely intuitive to use. When you add a model from the effects list you can preview the tone and the first page settings can be adjusted with the knobs where the scribble strips tell you what you're adjusting. And they work so smoothly it's just great. It truly feels as close to using a real piece of hardware that I've tried.
And to me that's what I've been chasing. Maybe it's no secret but I've been really burned out for a while and it's cut into my enjoyment of playing and creativity. My current job is much more demanding than it used to be a couple years ago so I have less time to screw around at my home office and less mental energy at the end of the day. I spend 8-9 hours a day working at a computer so I don't want to touch a computer if I have 30 minutes to play guitar. I've been buying and selling different things so I can have something much closer to the experience of playing a proper amp and pedals but without having the downsides like volume and pedalboards and power supplies and all that crap.
So far the Fender TMP really is the best modeling experience I've had, but I do need to give it time to see if problems develop. Not like defects, but do I find shortcomings in the amp modeling, or is there a particular effect I use all the time that isn't on the device that I forgot about. But right now I could see myself selling off the Axe FX 3 and tons of other gear and just settling in with this for a good while.
Bottom line: I think it's a killer modeler with the most enjoyable interface of anything I've used and it sounds really good. It's the closest I've found to a virtual amp and pedal board. It could very well replace my other modelers and a lot of other gear.
Amp modeling
I'm a pretty basic guy when it comes to amp models but I'm really picky about the tones. I don't really need a massive variety of amps so long as the basics are covered. I want a couple black panel Fenders (Deluxe, Twin), an AC30, a Jazz Chorus, a Plexi, an 800, a BE-100, and a 5150 III. So just about any amp modeler today can cover what I need.
The tones on the TMP are pretty plug and play and everything I tried sounded really good. I did test out the Marshalls and I didn't find them overly dark like the early sound clips. I also ran the TMP in the loop of my Axe 3 and messed around with a handful of models. The Fender was very competitive sonically. It generally sounded like it had more bass/treble whereas the Axe 3 sounded like it had a pushed midrange. On the Vox AC30, the TMP was brighter than the Fractal but when I picked the AC30 Brilliant model they were really close with the Fractal sounding brighter. On the BE-100, the Fractal is notoriously really dark and muffled sounding where the Fender has more gain and is much brighter.
Then I ran my Friedman JJ Junior in BE mode through a Suhr reactive load into the loop of the Fender. I think the Fender sounds closer to the real amp than the Fractal does. With stock settings the TMP has a really chunky bass where the JJ has tighter bass, but that could be the EL84 tubes. I lowered the master on the Fender model and lowered the bass and it's closer. I did have to turn up the gain and bass on the JJ though. The Fender is also more scooped sounding, so adding a bit of mids and scooping the JJ mids a bit got closer. Lastly the Fender was a bit bright so I did have to turn the treble and presence down. But after that they were really close. And both cleaned up pretty similarly.
Cab modeling
I haven't messed with this too much, but I generally like the Fender approach. It's a bunch of IR's shot at four different spots on the speaker (cap, cap edge, cone, cone edge) at a handful of distances, with several mics, and on/off axis. To me it sounds more realistic than a single mic in the Helix cabs or Fractal Dyna cab. There's actual bass in the SM57 model like you'd expect and not just mids and highs. That's something that bugs me about a lot of IR's...you should be able to get a kick ass sound out of a single SM57 if it's well placed, and a lot of factory cabs don't do well at that.
Flip side, it's a bit more realistic which means it's less smooth and can have more of a woofy or fizzy tone than other factory cabs. High/low cuts are more essential but they are effective. Same thing with impulse responses, they seemed to have more highs and lows than on the Fractal. And stock volume setting is way louder than the factory cab which is annoying.
The dual cab or dual mic feature is really nice. It's basically two pages of the same thing but you can see the position of each mic at the same time, plus there's a really good blend feature that normalizes the volume. Every company should do that (kudos to Fractal). You can only do two cabs or IR's at a time but I never need more than that.
One thing I'd like to see here is a stereo room mic built into the cab section. That's really nice to have on units like Fractal, some Neural DSP, and Kemper's Space feature.
Effects
Like amps I'm more of a quality over quantity guy. The original firmware was lacking a lot of good effects but the current version feels nearly complete to me. There's a ton of variety in everything and it all sounds really good. I tried running effects with the virtual amps as well as 4 cable method with my Friedman JJ Junior.
Drive pedals have a ton of variety, like two kinds of tube screamers, two kinds of Klons, three big muffs, just a huge variety. They sound really good, on par maybe even better than Helix, definitely better than Fractal. I say this with love, and maybe it's the UI, but the Fractal drive pedals often sound very similar to me. Helix pedals have more variety, and the Fender has that same variety in sound but might be a little cleaner sounding.
Tons of modulation options including a lot of cool Boss effects. You get the CE-2 and DC-2 and all kind of other standards like the Electric Mistress and Phase 90. But you also get some different ones like the CE-5 chorus and Boss phaser and vibrato. Pretty much anything I'd like to use is in here. Maybe the one critique is some of the modulation effects don't have a mix knob which would be a really nice quality of life feature.
Delays are pretty good although I think there could be more here. You have the basics covered especially in mono versions, but because Fender tries to stay close to the stock pedal layout, you may be missing some stereo options or things may not work as expected. For instance the analog delay which is a DM-2 model seems to have some weird ghost noise that sounds like the chip is being overloaded. It's neat but would be nice to dial that out if possible. Some models make the whole tone kind of dark which again the original may do but I'd like to have the option to turn that off. On the ping pong delay, the high cut only impacts the feedback repeats and not the first repeats. So it's more like virtual pedals for sure but I'd like to sometimes not have those limitations. However there's a killer Halo delay which is amazing and probably does just about anything I'd need.
Reverbs are okay although I haven't gone deep with all of them. The older models are pretty stale and one dimensional sounding but some of the newer ones are much more interesting. The convolution reverbs sound really good but seem to be really DSP intensive. I think there's some improvements that could be made here. There are a lot of cloud and shimmer ones I don't use much that I'll have to try.
Pitch effects are cool but there's some latency. It has a proper Eventide Micropitch though! Just like the current pedal version, it sounds awesome too. Not sure why nobody outside Fractal has done a proper dual detune pedal but Fender has one now. The virtual capo is alright but all of them sound weird to me when I tried the new Fractal firmware against the others. The POG model is cool, I haven't used the real thing, but it's way easier to use when you can see the proper pedal labels. Still it sounds a bit garbled and has latency.
Overall Thoughts
I've already talked about the UI earlier but as I said it's fantastic. Being able to see the actual amps/effects at a glance is killer, the knob switches are PHENOMENAL, extremely intuitive to use. When you add a model from the effects list you can preview the tone and the first page settings can be adjusted with the knobs where the scribble strips tell you what you're adjusting. And they work so smoothly it's just great. It truly feels as close to using a real piece of hardware that I've tried.
And to me that's what I've been chasing. Maybe it's no secret but I've been really burned out for a while and it's cut into my enjoyment of playing and creativity. My current job is much more demanding than it used to be a couple years ago so I have less time to screw around at my home office and less mental energy at the end of the day. I spend 8-9 hours a day working at a computer so I don't want to touch a computer if I have 30 minutes to play guitar. I've been buying and selling different things so I can have something much closer to the experience of playing a proper amp and pedals but without having the downsides like volume and pedalboards and power supplies and all that crap.
So far the Fender TMP really is the best modeling experience I've had, but I do need to give it time to see if problems develop. Not like defects, but do I find shortcomings in the amp modeling, or is there a particular effect I use all the time that isn't on the device that I forgot about. But right now I could see myself selling off the Axe FX 3 and tons of other gear and just settling in with this for a good while.
TMP really does excel at that immediate, tactile experience. Good stuff, Jarick.
Before Stadium was announced, I thought the TMP was close to sending my FM9 packing too. The routing ended up fighting me on a couple of things I tried to do, but it's just not for complex signal chains.
Before Stadium was announced, I thought the TMP was close to sending my FM9 packing too. The routing ended up fighting me on a couple of things I tried to do, but it's just not for complex signal chains.
Mikael Dez
Rock Star
- Messages
- 3,092
How is the TMP for the brootz? I’m not picky about my cleans because honestly every modeler has been good enough for me on that front. I’m talking death metal/thrash
The Soldano (with a boost) and 5153 Stealth get it done. I don't play heavier than drop C, but it chugs.
Mikael Dez
Rock Star
- Messages
- 3,092
Heavy isn’t a tuning (imo anyway) - there’s a ton of brutal shit in E standard or Eb
![[Nathan]](/data/avatars/m/0/613.jpg?1726885163){kind=avatar}
[Nathan]
Shredder
- Messages
- 1,001
Does the job with a bunch of amps and cabs. Boosts are pretty limited but there’s a tubescreamer, sd1 and other basics.
For me it’s on par or a nudge ahead with current helix. They do the job and sound good, just doesn’t feel fractal (and I’m sure stadium) next level.
Ola and Rob Arnold from chimaera have both used them live and praised them.
I’ve had friends who feel intimidated by fractal UIs and the fact they can knock up a full chug pedalboard with good sound alongside assigned foot switches and scenes very easily on the TMP is really where it shines.
Mikael Dez
Rock Star
- Messages
- 3,092
Tone > UI for me, I think my next modeler will
be the Stadium unless Fractal announces something before the non-XL is available to purchase lol
[Nathan]
Shredder
- Messages
- 1,001
Yeah it’s like a new generation of gpu coming out you might as well wait for stadium. A used FM3 is a cheap way to get the fractal stuff while eagerly awaiting an axe4
Tritium3H
Groupie
- Messages
- 56
Nathan, I assume you mean DSPs (like as made by TI or Analog Devices, or perhaps even ARM-based) not GPUs, as per Nvidia or AMD.
I also don’t think anyone knows the specs on the TMP, nor, for that matter, how its DSP and memory capabilities might compare to the forthcoming Helix Stadium. The only comparison, I have seen, is Line 6 remarking that their new stadium will be (rough) twice as powerful as the original Helix Floor.
[Nathan]
Shredder
- Messages
- 1,001
I meant conceptually from a consumer point of view, not actual hardware revisions and horsepower.
If you know an iphone18 is about to come out, getting the existing iphone17 seems like a dud purchase kind of thing. TMP and Helix get the job done but your same $$$ can get you a stadium soon. Just from a consumer point of view it makes sense to hold out and see what the next gen of stuff is like.
I mentioned a used fractal FM3 because regardless of how old that line of hardware is, they are freaks with firmware and have new stuff out all the time. A used FM3 is bang for buck the "best / most modern" modelling dollar per dollar.
And yeah I dont really care about the DSP of one unit vs the other, its kind of meaningless since they run their own stuff from the ground up. The only time DSP and specs kind of come into play is when a unit can only run XYZ because of its own limitations. Generally at that point you'd wish it could do more. On a side side note I vaguely recall the specs of the TMP being impressive/overkill for what it was doing and had the capacity to do profiling on the unit, but we haven't seen any of that so maybe it was just here say from a bunch of sources.
jonsguitargarage
Newbie
- Messages
- 11
If you mean classic Thrash I have a few Metallica presets that sound pretty close to the original recordings. I can send you a link if you are interested.
Jarick
Rock Star
- Messages
- 4,780
One thing I'm noticing, there's a little more "crackle" on clean Fender amps when they are pushed than I would expect. I think this is something real amps do that gets recreated with the modeling but I'm not sure if it's more prominent on the Fender TMP than other devices. I think these are the "squirrels" we used to talk about back in the earlier Line 6 days. I found a discussion on TOP about this and there were some clips of real amps doing the same thing to an extent.
I also cleaned up my gear area a bit and hooked up both the Fender TMP and Fractal Axe 3 so they are running simultaneously into my sound card with an A/B switch to instantly change between devices. With the same model and IR, the crackle is absolutely there on the Fractal stuff, although it may be a bit less prominent. That could be overall EQ though as the Fractal sounds like it has less high end in general but more midrange.
I also cleaned up my gear area a bit and hooked up both the Fender TMP and Fractal Axe 3 so they are running simultaneously into my sound card with an A/B switch to instantly change between devices. With the same model and IR, the crackle is absolutely there on the Fractal stuff, although it may be a bit less prominent. That could be overall EQ though as the Fractal sounds like it has less high end in general but more midrange.
Jarick
Rock Star
- Messages
- 4,780
One quick update - the very scooped tone seems to be related to the speaker impedance curve. It seems to default to 4x12 Brit Greenback which has a lot of bass and treble. Basically every other 4x12 cab even other Greenback cabs like the EVH or Friedman have much less of a scooped sound, much less high end.
With that change, the Friedman sounds much better at default settings around noon rather than cranking up the mids and then rolling the presence/treble way back. The Fractal still sounds very dark and requires the mids to be scooped out a bit and treble/presence turned up between 6-7.
With that change, the Friedman sounds much better at default settings around noon rather than cranking up the mids and then rolling the presence/treble way back. The Fractal still sounds very dark and requires the mids to be scooped out a bit and treble/presence turned up between 6-7.
- Messages
- 6,531
Jake from Umphrey’s McGee started using a TMP a month or two ago…. He was previously using a rather complex boutique multi amp setup for years… kind of a surprising move
I’ve seen a lot of complaints about his new tone from a lot of non musicians and probably some musicians too in the fan groups
I’ve listened to some sound boards and maybe it is a step in the wrong direction if you really focus on his tone but otherwise probably wouldn’t have noticed. Definitely curious to see how it sounds live next time I can to hear in person
I’ve seen a lot of complaints about his new tone from a lot of non musicians and probably some musicians too in the fan groups
I’ve listened to some sound boards and maybe it is a step in the wrong direction if you really focus on his tone but otherwise probably wouldn’t have noticed. Definitely curious to see how it sounds live next time I can to hear in person
Similar threads
