Fender Tone Master FR-10 and FR-12 FRFR cabs

[jay mitchell]

I am curious to measure it myself. The Archangel guy claims it is louder with the upgraded pre-amp

That's pretty delusional as well. The limit on maximum amplifier output is never due to limitations imposed by a preamp. It may well have more gain (aka "voltage amplification") at given settings, but a different preamp won't increase the power amp's maximum output.

and measured 126 db

His measurement is in error. Assuming his equipment calibration is accurate, if he placed the mic on or close to the floor at a 1-meter distance, he'd get an extra 6dB from the boundary reinforcement. That's the mistake I pointed out here: IK TONEX CAB.

How did you come up with the 117 figure?

That's actually too generous by a significant amount. The internal amp is rated at - but probably can't actually deliver - 350 watts into 4 ohms, whereas the woofer is 8 ohms. I generously started with the assumption of 175 watts (half the 4-ohm figure) continuous power with a sine wave input into 8 ohms. That's absolute best-case. A sine wave has a 3dB crest factor (the ratio of peak to average power), and my best-case assumption has the amp beginning to clip at this level. The signal from a guitar has a much higher crest factor - even a compressed/high gain sound will have approximately 10dB - so, assuming you want all the clipping to come from the modeler and not the FR-10/12 - trust me on this, you really do - that reduces available continuous power by 7dB as compared to a sine wave.

Now, 175 watts = log(175)*10 = 22.4dB re: 1 watt. Subtract the 7 dB due to crest factor, and you get 15.4dB maximum continuous power referenced to 1 watt. Assuming a close-to-incredible woofer sensitivity of 100dB 1W/1M, the speaker could produce 115.4dBSPL at a 1 meter distance. Again, generously assuming your ear to be only two meters from the speaker, this translates to 109dBSPL.

Do you know the sensitivity of the drivers used, or did you measure one?

No 12" woofer exceeds 100dB/1W sensitivity. If that's a whole space figure, it implies an efficiency of 12.6%, a figure that no cone transducer can reach.

 

[Chocol8]

Understood Jay, and thanks for the explanation. Personally I am OK with the 6db from the ground plane as that is how it would normally be used, but there is still a 5+ db discrepancy. I wonder if the 126 db was measured with the FR-12 in the corner of a small room?

I think the story is that the replacement preamp board increases output because the Fender pre-amp was clipping before the power amp, so it was unable to get full output.

At some point I will try to get a reasonable ground plane measurement, but my wife needs to not be home and it can’t be too late to piss off the neighborhood!!!

 

[jay mitchell]

Understood Jay, and thanks for the explanation. Personally I am OK with the 6db from the ground plane as that is how it would normally be used,

Nope. The microphone sees a 6dB increase in level from the boundary effect, and the speaker need not be on the floor for this to occur. Unless you put your ear on the ground, you won't hear the same increase while you're playing. The numbers being bandied about are delusional; you'll be lucky to get 109dBSPL at your ears from one of those. And 109dBSPL is really loud, especially in a residential setting. It might fall short as backline at a gig, however.

but there is still a 5+ db discrepancy. I wonder if the 126 db was measured with the FR-12 in the corner of a small room?

That guy has absolutely no clue how to measure loudspeaker performance. I'm not at all surprised that he came up with deluded results, and I care not a whit exactly how he screwed up, most likely in multiple ways.

I think the story is that the replacement preamp board increases output because the Fender pre-amp was clipping before the power amp,

That's essentially unheard of. It would require a stunning level of incompetency to happen. While I have no respect for Fender's marketing people for making such foolish SPL claims, I'm pretty sure their engineers aren't that stupid.

 

[molul]

That's actually too generous by a significant amount. The internal amp is rated at - but probably can't actually deliver - 350 watts into 4 ohms, whereas the woofer is 8 ohms. I generously started with the assumption of 175 watts (half the 4-ohm figure) continuous power with a sine wave input into 8 ohms. That's absolute best-case. A sine wave has a 3dB crest factor (the ratio of peak to average power), and my best-case assumption has the amp beginning to clip at this level. The signal from a guitar has a much higher crest factor - even a compressed/high gain sound will have approximately 10dB - so, assuming you want all the clipping to come from the modeler and not the FR-10/12 - trust me on this, you really do - that reduces available continuous power by 7dB as compared to a sine wave.

Now, 175 watts = log(175)*10 = 22.4dB re: 1 watt. Subtract the 7 dB due to crest factor, and you get 15.4dB maximum continuous power referenced to 1 watt. Assuming a close-to-incredible woofer sensitivity of 100dB 1W/1M, the speaker could produce 115.4dBSPL at a 1 meter distance. Again, generously assuming your ear to be only two meters from the speaker, this translates to 109dBSPL.

No 12" woofer exceeds 100dB/1W sensitivity. If that's a whole space figure, it implies an efficiency of 12.6%, a figure that no cone transducer can reach.

Exactly what I was telling my mother last Sunday.

 

[jay mitchell]

Exactly what I was telling my mother last Sunday.

Too much time on your hands, huh? What was her reply?

 

[Chocol8]

What was her reply?

Something about a DSL combo and some e-drums.

 

[bucephalus]

Too much time on your hands, huh? What was her reply?

Tell Jay to have a coke and a smile, and shut the fuck up.

 

[jay mitchell]

Tell Jay to have a coke and a smile, and shut the fuck up.

So you know his mom?

 

[ian_dissonance]

So you know his mom?

We ALL know her.

 

[JPenn]

i've been looking at the fr10 since they first came out, but haven't been able to pull the trigger on one for some reason.

 

[bucephalus]

Same.

 

[mbenigni]

i've been looking at the fr10 since they first came out, but haven't been able to pull the trigger on one for some reason.

It is what it is. If you want a very guitar-friendly pseudo-FR powered speaker that looks a lot like a little Fender combo - and you can part with $500-$600, it's great.

I get that $500-$600 isn't "impulse purchase" territory for a lot of us, and Fender kind of shot themselves in the foot with all of the noise issues. Many of us who were already on the fence were scared off by this misstep for a while. I finally took a leap of faith and was lucky enough to receive a quiet one.

 

[Baba]

No dog in this one, since I no longer own an FR-12, but, that was some great info @jay mitchell , and simple and dumbed down enough, for even me to understand it

Thanks

 

[paisleywookiee]

Something about a DSL combo and some e-drums.

 

[FuzzyAce]

My Archangel preamps came in last week but I've been so busy, just haven't had the time to install yet. Hopefully Saturday I'll get to them.

 

[Jarick]

Some of you never had car stereo subwoofer systems. Basically every amp was advertised at peak watts with like 10% thd.

If you think the $650 fender fr12 claiming 1000 watts is funny go check out the advertised wattage for the $400 headrush frfr 12.

 

[Lysander]

Some of you never had car stereo subwoofer systems. Basically every amp was advertised at peak watts with like 10% thd.

If you think the $650 fender fr12 claiming 1000 watts is funny go check out the advertised wattage for the $400 headrush frfr 12.

Headrush's FRFR line also suffers from the peak power advertising nonsense, but those amps are surprisingly way more powerful than Fender's.

The FRFR-112 MKII, for example, is rated at "2000 Watts peak power", but i recall reports of it consuming ~4A at 220v with the volume half-way, which means it can put out a sustained 750-800 Watt.

 

[Roncore]

I know this is random as hell, but has anybody found a source for the FR12 speaker? I'd love to somehow take my FR12 speakers and convert into a 2x12 vertical cab of some sorts (haven't figure out all the logistics yet). I might have to break down and buy a secon FR12 to do this, and at that point, I might as well grab the FR2x12. Anybody tinkered with this idea?

 

[Lysander]

and at that point, I might as well grab the FR2x12

This. Even if you could do this... why would you? Just grab a FR-212 and tilt it on its side.

For whatever's worth, the 12" speaker on the FR-12 is not labeled with any manufacturer information - just "8 Ohms 150W" and a Fender part number. It's almost assuredly a low cost Chinese part bought in bulk; i can't think of any "serious" speaker manufacturer selling 12" FRFR speakers with such a low wattage rating.

 

[mbenigni]

For whatever's worth, the 12" speaker on the FR-12 is not labeled with any manufacturer information - just "8 Ohms 150W" and a Fender part number. It's almost assuredly a low cost Chinese part bought in bulk; i can't think of any "serious" speaker manufacturer selling 12" FRFR speakers with such a low wattage rating.

And it isn’t an FR 12” speaker anyway; it’s part of an FR-ish array when paired with the tweeter. (“Part of this balanced breakfast.”)

It would be cool if Fender offered an equivalent passive extension cab (except how would that even work without the cut knob circuit?) But I’d rather have a second powered one anyway. They’re already light enough and cheap enough, and with two you have a backup, you can run stereo when you want to, etc.

But getting back to Roncore’s question, maybe experiment with a second cab loaded with a Celestion F12-X200. Different, but maybe a decent complement to the Fender cab?