" Feel " ...... FM3 -vs- Helix ..... thoughts (?)

[Mongillo19]

Haven't tried the newest big firmware update on the FM3, but had it a couple of years ago, and IMO it does gets close enough to real amp -

Imo it's come a long way in a couple years. You honestly can't compare it to what it is now if you ask me

 

[Eagle]

It totally depends on how you amplify them. Most FF FR is nothing like and no matter what it isn’t going to feel like good guitar amp.

 

[Tito83]

It totally depends on how you amplify them. Most FF FR is nothing like and no matter what it isn’t going to feel like good guitar amp.

While not the same as listening with guitar speakers, while running my amps into a reactive load with irs and listening on a pair of yamaha hs8s this has never occurred to me. Felt just great. Can't say that about most modelers in the very same monitoring situation.

What I mean is, running anything through guitar speakers will be an improvement, but doesn't really address the issue.

Imo it's come a long way in a couple years. You honestly can't compare it to what it is now if you ask me

Forgive my skepticism, but if we're being honest, this has been said many, many... many times when it comes to Fractal.

 

[laxu]

Haven't tried the newest big firmware update on the FM3, but had it a couple of years ago, and IMO it does gets close enough to real amp - and neither does Helix, which I still own (HX Stomp actually). The Fractal stuff has a particular feel just like Helix, and after playing both extensively Fractal feels a bit more "comfortable" to play... Hard to describe. I feel like I fight a bit more trying to play Helix models. Hard to describe.

But neither feel as close to an amp as the UA stuff does though IMO. After years playing tube amps through reactive loads, this is the first time I actually think it's really close.

IMO what UA did was to let a player call the shots, not an engineer. Graphs are great, but I think some stuff gets overlooked that ends up not resulting and the closest possible model. And when I say player, I mean player's player. Also helps a lot if this person has great experience with the gear being modeled. That's James Santiago from UA. Go listen to some of his interviews and you'll also see the lengths he went through with the tests. Stuff way past what anyone would already call corksnifery... And the result speaks for itself. With all the faults I could point out about their pedals, the quality of the modeling is really not one of them.

I've tried the UA Dream and Lion but haven't owned either to compare it directly to Fractal, just tried through a setup that was a very close equivalent to what I own (big Genelec studio monitors).

To me they sounded and felt very similar to Fractal models. Which is great of course, but I just can't find this superiority you do. But I can't jump into your brain and experience what you do. It's always possible that my perception of things is not as accurate.

Already several years ago I was able to dial the Axe-Fx 3 to sound and feel near identical to the tube amps I had, ones that aren't even directly modeled by Fractal. This was tested with decibel meter matched volume levels, through either reactive loadbox + cab sims + studio monitors or Fryette PS-100 + real cabs, so I had the closest possible equivalent setups for both scenarios. This was quite a few firmwares ago so if anything, now it should be even more accurate than what my ears were able to tell at the time.

As for James Santiago, he's certainly a very knowledgeable dude, but so are the folks at Line6 and Fractal. Cliff has taken apart and analyzed a huge pile of amps, and also being the guy who programs the Axe-Fx I'd trust his expertise in both fields.

I'd trust measured data over what someone hears because the ears are very easy to fool, even things like your mood and weather can have an effect. Of course, you need to measure the right stuff first...

 

[Eagle]

A great class AB power amp and guitar speakers and you’re going to get a lot closer than any FR FR. Studio monitors are a different thing . Amplifying a miked up tube amp and an AxFx are pretty much identical sat in the control room in monitors. But this is not the amp in the room feel.

 

[ejecta]

Forgive my skepticism, but if we're being honest, this has been said many, many... many times when it comes to Fractal.

Nothing to forgive. It’s very true. I’ve heard that rhetoric even way back when I owned a standard.

 

[Mongillo19]

Nothing to forgive. It’s very true. I’ve heard that rhetoric even way back when I owned a standard.

You aren't wrong! But a few years ago I preferred Kemper amp tones vastly over the axe fx. To me the axe fx is in a better spot today. But YMMV of course

 

[ian_dissonance]

Those who think feel is not a thing are either dead inside, or have not actually played
a wide variety of different kinds of amps.

Probably a bit of both, eh?

“Feel” is absolutely a thing, it just isn’t the same thing for everybody. As far “notes jump off the guitar” feel, my old Ibanez destroyer into a Digitech RP250 “felt” like it basically played itself. As far as “guts rumbling from the brootz” feel, my 7 string Strat into a Carvin X100b with a bad monkey boosting it was amazing. Both of those tones were arguably garbage to listen to and probably felt terrible to other players, like me trying to play through a dual rectifier. Feels like ass to me.

 

[Achilles]

I don't know why the Astro 20 outshines the modeling gear through monitors.

I got a couple hunches.....

 

[Tito83]

I've tried the UA Dream and Lion but haven't owned either to compare it directly to Fractal, just tried through a setup that was a very close equivalent to what I own (big Genelec studio monitors).

To me they sounded and felt very similar to Fractal models. Which is great of course, but I just can't find this superiority you do. But I can't jump into your brain and experience what you do. It's always possible that my perception of things is not as accurate.

Already several years ago I was able to dial the Axe-Fx 3 to sound and feel near identical to the tube amps I had, ones that aren't even directly modeled by Fractal. This was tested with decibel meter matched volume levels, through either reactive loadbox + cab sims + studio monitors or Fryette PS-100 + real cabs, so I had the closest possible equivalent setups for both scenarios. This was quite a few firmwares ago so if anything, now it should be even more accurate than what my ears were able to tell at the time.

As for James Santiago, he's certainly a very knowledgeable dude, but so are the folks at Line6 and Fractal. Cliff has taken apart and analyzed a huge pile of amps, and also being the guy who programs the Axe-Fx I'd trust his expertise in both fields.

I'd trust measured data over what someone hears because the ears are very easy to fool, even things like your mood and weather can have an effect. Of course, you need to measure the right stuff first...

Similar is tricky. I could be able to say stuff is similar even though it's glaringly obvious there's a difference.

Thing is for me I never felt the response I had with valve amps with modelers... Until the UA stuff. Tonex comes close, but even captures from the UA just doesn't seem to react the same IMO.

Sure there are a lot of knowledgeable people on L6, Fractal and every other company, that's not what I'm saying at all.

Exactly. I've seen many comparisons using a flat 2d EQ curve to compare different sound sources, but where's EQ variance over time? While a flat EQ curve comparison can be useful, it certainly can point to something, but it's just incomplete. And yet, I've seen this treated like the debate ended there.

 

[ejecta]

I got a couple hunches.....

Because tubes.

 

[FuzzyAce]

Because tubes.

(it's true)

 

[Achilles]

I signed an agreement years ago that I would post this at every single opportunity that presents itself.

 

[FuzzyAce]

I signed an agreement years ago that I would post this at every single opportunity that presents itself.

 

[Tito83]

I sat down to learn songs for a gig this Saturday but end up doing noodling around messing with my Hx Stomp, UA Lion and a ToneX One.

The UA and ToneX (with the right capture) have a certain bounce the HX is just uncapable to match. It's like the HX is a very very stiff trampoline, not really as fun as the other ones. The UA still has a thing, a sense of realness I still miss from everything I tried with the ToneX.

It's not like the HX sucks, I have tones dialed in I'm perfectly capable to live with, but at the end of the day it's just not as good.

 

[dk_ace]

I set down to learn songs for a gig this Saturday but end up doing noodling around messing with an Hx Stomp, UA Lion and a ToneX One.

The UA and ToneX (with the right capture) have a certain bounce the HX is just uncapable to match. It's like the HX is a very very stiff trampoline, not really as fun as the other ones. The UA still has a thing, a sense of realness I still miss from everything I tried with the ToneX.

It's not like the HX sucks, I have tones dialed in I'm perfectly capable to live with, but at the end of the day it's just not as good.

I found the gramatico gsg model to have a nice bounce to it in Helix. I didn’t really find that in any other model in the unit. That was ok for me as I like a little stiffer feel for a lot of stuff.

Still prefer my FM9 overall. I haven’t bothered with the UA stuff the feature set just isn’t interesting to me without presets and midi.

D

 

[Elric]

L6 is okay, if you can’t afford a Fractal or figure out how to program one.

 

[holoholo]

 

[mikah912]

L6 is okay, if you can’t afford a Fractal or figure out how to program one.

Bruh.

 

[JCW308]

It totally depends on how you amplify them. Most FF FR is nothing like and no matter what it isn’t going to feel like good guitar amp.

Not true at all.