Reverb & delay - Helix vs Fractal

[KHAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!!!!]

I wouldn't say that. Plenty of legacy cabs are on my FM9 in the uh,.....Legacy cab bank.

Sure they're called legacy. But the technology, and processing required to make a good IR in 2014 isn't really any different than today.

 

[Mikael Dez]

Sure they're called legacy. But the technology, and processing required to make a good IR in 2014 isn't really any different than today.

Are you saying you don’t like that Line6 includes the legacy stuff as an option?

 

[dk_ace]

When I say metallic, it sounds like stuff bouncing off metal to me somehow. It isn’t high frequency stuff. It may or may not be comb filtering, can’t say for sure on that I definitely wouldn’t rule it out.

D

 

[fr8_trane]

When I say metallic, I mean you can hear the comb filtering going on in the feedback network. I'm not talking about 'tone' as such, I'm talking about the actual algorithmic quality. It is audible if you know what to listen for. You can hear a kind of echoey or delay character to the reverb tails, rather than a smooth wash. Sometimes you want one, sometimes you want the other.

Exactly!!! That and literally not enough diffusion so you can almost hear individual echoes. Those old L6 verbs were terrible. There is nothing metallic about the Dynamic verbs and I'm picky. Can you make them sound metallic? Possibly if you turn the diffusion parameter way down.

 

[mikah912]

When I say metallic, I mean you can hear the comb filtering going on in the feedback network. I'm not talking about 'tone' as such, I'm talking about the actual algorithmic quality. It is audible if you know what to listen for. You can hear a kind of echoey or delay character to the reverb tails, rather than a smooth wash. Sometimes you want one, sometimes you want the other.

One of the characteristics of the HX Dynamic verbs I don't like, especially on the Hall, is the motion character that you just can't dial out no matter what you do. At lowest setting it still sounds lumpy and weird.

Thanks for the explanations. Very helpful. I'm guess I'm fortunate that my reverb tastes aren't developed enough to perceive this stuff, LOL.

Hopefully, Line 6 is fully aware, and they have another round of reverbs cooking in the oven for not too long after Stadium launches.

 

[mikah912]

Sure they're called legacy. But the technology, and processing required to make a good IR in 2014 isn't really any different than today.

And all of those old-timey amp models he just renamed FAS originals or something kitschy like Das Metal?

 

[KHAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!!!!]

And all of those old-timey amp models he just renamed FAS originals or something kitschy like Das Metal?

I don't even know what this means.

 

[mikah912]

I don't even know what this means.

I'm talking about Fractal's legacy amp models that have been carried over unchanged from the Axe-FX I/II era.

 

[dk_ace]

One of the characteristics of the HX Dynamic verbs I don't like, especially on the Hall, is the motion character that you just can't dial out no matter what you do. At lowest setting it still sounds lumpy and weird.

Yeah that started to grate on me too eventually. It’s always pretty modulated at higher decay times and you can’t turn that off.

D

 

[Frodebro]

I'm talking about Fractal's legacy amp models that have been carried over unchanged from the Axe-FX I/II era.

Most amp models change as the firmware is tweaked. Every time a new modeling engine is introduced, it impacts every amp in the unit whether it is a recent addition or was originally ported over from prior hardware.

 

[Frodebro]

The thing about the Stadium that to me will probably be the most cool (beyond "oooooh touchscreen!") is how it will integrate with amps and aid in switching said amps.

Now imagine it integrating with amps AND a Fractal at the same time... I have experimented with throwing my Stomp XL in a loop on the FM9 and had a jolly old time fucking around with that. The stadium would be... More.

 

[Orvillain]

@Digital Igloo If you're looking for reference pedals - my 2 pennies...

- Strymon Blue Sky
- UA Golden
- Boss RV-5
- MXR Reverb
- Source Audio Ventris

Those are my favourites anyway.

 

[Orvillain]

The thing about the Stadium that to me will probably be the most cool (beyond "oooooh touchscreen!") is how it will integrate with amps and aid in switching said amps.

Helix is already pretty stellar at this tbh! Better than the Fractal is. Fractal just feels way finnickier to control other gear with it, and very limiting.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Exactly!!! That and literally not enough diffusion so you can almost hear individual echoes. Those old L6 verbs were terrible. There is nothing metallic about the Dynamic verbs and I'm picky. Can you make them sound metallic? Possibly if you turn the diffusion parameter way down.

Totally agree with the above, as well as the comb filtering. And the modulation and how it’s applied can affect things a lot.

 

[mikah912]

Most amp models change as the firmware is tweaked. Every time a new modeling engine is introduced, it impacts every amp in the unit whether it is a recent addition or was originally ported over from prior hardware.

I'm not sure that's true of the ones he dials in by ear using values and techniques even he admits wouldn't be possible with physical components and topologies.

I'm sure there are some sort of global changes that affect them across the years, much like Line 6's oversampling updates or higher quality/headroom components in the Stadium, but those are Legacy models by whatever definition you want to choose.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Helix is already pretty stellar at this tbh! Better than the Fractal is. Fractal just feels way finnickier to control other gear with it, and very limiting.

Its weird for me. Helix is much less resistant to this as far as FAS driving me nuts digging 40 layers deep into system menus to optimize settings to play nicely with other gear. But when I listen to the sounds I'd get out of Helix comparatively;

 

[KHAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!!!!]

I'm talking about Fractal's legacy amp models that have been carried over unchanged from the Axe-FX I/II era.

Kind of the opposite actually. The last firmware designed for the Axe-FXIi was Quantum 9.x.

The first firmware for the Axe-FXIII was Ares 1.03. Cliff said he ported as much of Ares as he could to the last Axe-FXII firmware. Just like he did for the Ultra/Std. FW 11 when the II came out.

And when I say that I chose Fractal because of the constant grind to improve all blocks on the unit, I'm talking about this:

Amp modeling - Fractal Audio Wiki

wiki.fractalaudio.com

This is just the list of amp modelling engine updates. There has been constant evolution of drives, compressors, reverbs, delays and all the other blocks. That's just my personal preference for what I use.

 

[OneEng]

Fractal and Kemper have noticeably better reverb and delay than Helix to my ears.

Stadium will be launching with what they already have. It isn't bad, it's just not as good as Fractal and Kemper (or H9). Hopefully Line 6 will update the verb and delay after launch. These are pretty important staples to have right in this price range of a device IMO.

 

[Mikael Dez]

I wish fractal had a plugin so I could see what the hype was about before spending 1k+ (VP4 has no cabs so no for me dog)

 

[deathbyguitar]

I wish fractal had a plugin so I could see what the hype was about before spending 1k+ (VP4 has no cabs so no for me dog)

Cliff alluded to this being in the cards for the VP4 "soon"

VP4 Firmware V2.02 Release

Wish! Please make E-H deep freeze ability for vp4. Yall would have the best version hands down.

forum.fractalaudio.com